Debate VII: Diets Vegetarian vs Omnivorus

[Tollwutig]

OK lack of interest so... we'll go with something I know a little about...... this time its a Vegetarian vs Omnivorous Diets.
Vegetarian is easy, Omnivorous are those who eat meat and vegetables.

Omnivorous: Red
Anjin-San
pixelante_ninja
Ace_ofspade
thefremen
BetaSword
nightwng2000
ZimmyDSMlee
Silver_Derstin




Vegetarian: Blue
wxDiva
Cecil475
godofyouall
cyn1c42
Ohma
Hank the Tank
Ack
John
dagrak

[Tollwutig]

OK I changed the debate mid stride because I had an epiphany of something that could actually spark a debate on these forums.

[Ace_ofspade]

Of course people need a balanced diet. Maybe if we just stepped out of the primordial ooze and said "Nah, I'm not eating that." But we've been eating it since the beginning of time, and our society uses it so much, that if you decide to go vegetarian, you'll grow intolerant to the slightest hint, it will be harder to find meals, and worst of all, you'll become a prick. You'll probably do crap like change your name to that of a vegetarian web-site, you'll pore blood on people's fur coats. People point to "Oh, its unhealthy. Oh, it'll causes obesity and high blood pressure." Anything in excess is bad. If you eat too many vegetables and fruits, you'll grow meat-intolerant and the excess fiber will give you diarrhea to holy hell. Everything in moderation. Best of all, WINGS. Slathered in Louisiana hot sauce and cooked till its a perfect balance of crunchy and soft. What's not to love?

Don't forget your color. I just changed it Orange was harsh on my eyes. -Toll
^ Was without a mouse and operating on keyboard shortcuts. It would have been a hassle to change the color so I just hoped you guys would change it for me. K thanx.

[Dagrak]

The human race is naturally omnivorus, it takes far more effort to avoid eating meat then it does to just accept it and eat meat. The main driving factor for vegetarianism and veganism (and I'm going to go with veganism on the whole here as you just know thats what people will demand everyone become if a vegetarian lifestyle becomes commonplace) is the mistreatment of animals or the fear/disgust with eating something which was once alive. Unfortunately people often forget that many farmed animals are in fact dependant on being required for food. Cows for example, when was the last time you saw a wild cow? Cows have managed to survive because we use them as a "crop", if veganism (which also says you can't have milk products) became widespread then cows would become useless to us and its unlikely that many farmers would keep them as they now serve little purpose and cost a lot of money to keep. Therefore the cow population would diminish. So infact whilst it may seem bizarre more cows will survive if we're eating them then if we are not.

For the general population veganism is also very difficult to adhere to as it requires knowledge of the foods creation process something which either takes a while to understand or that most people simply don't have any knowledge of how to do.

Of course there is always the factor of cost. It will cost you more to live an organic vegetarian lifestyle then it will to live a non-organic omnivorus lifestyle, with organic foods costing considerably more then normal foods. Its why you see most of the champions of organic food (Prince Charles etc, Jamie Oliver) are the extremely rich the rest of us have to make do on smaller budgets.

Of course veganism has its criticisms, particuarly in its main belief that all life is sacred:

"the belief that all life is sacred can lead to absurdities such as allowing mosquitoes to spread malaria, or vipers to run loose on one's premises."

According to the wikipedia article there are also health concerns for a full on vegan diet:

A common misconception is that vegetable protein is equal to animal protein. In fact, protein obtained from animal sources such as fish, eggs and dairy is inherently a higher quality protein according to the PDCAAS and Biological Value methods than protein obtained from vegetable sources such as soy. Therefore, some vegetarians, particularly vegans, could, without due diligence, run a health risk due to protein deficiency...

...Vegans are at a higher risk of vitamin A deficiency because in its true form (also called retinol) it is found only in animal foods such as fish oils and liver. This form is readily absorbed by the body. Plants do not contain vitamin A, but rather provitamin A and despite consumption of such provitamin A rich foods there might be vitamin deficiencies because of the consumption of insufficient amount of fat together with carotene-rich vegetables, and dietary deficiencies in iron and zinc...

...Vitamin B12, a bacterial product, cannot be reliably found in plant foods. While it takes one to five years to exhaust the body's reserve of vitamin B12, serious health consequences are a very real risk.[41] In a recent laboratory study, 60% of the strict vegan participants' B12 and iron levels were compromised, as compared with the lacto- or lacto-ovo-vegetarian participants (who were able to acquire vitamin B12 from these animal sources).[42] In addition, lower counts of lymphocytes (the white blood cells responsible for immune system responses) and platelets (responsible for blood coagulation) and alterations in the iron metabolism and transport, were demonstrated.

Another B12 study was conducted in rural Africa, partially backed by the U.S. based National Cattlemen's Beef Association, which demonstrated a dramatic improvement in the health of individuals who had, prior to the study, been on diets completely lacking in animal products. The study concluded that the added nutrients, especially vitamin B12 contained in the meat and milk improved the health of the children in the study.[43] The author of the study, Professor Lindsay Allen of the United States Agricultural Research Service, declared: "There's absolutely no question that it's unethical for parents to bring up their children as strict vegans, unless those who practiced them were well-informed about how to add back the missing nutrients through supplements or fortified foods."


And as a final note leading a vegan lifestyle can lead to serious health concerns to your children:

One study noted the importance of early recognition of significant maternal vitamin B12 deficiency during pregnancy and lactation in vegetarians is emphasized so that appropriate supplementation can be given and irreversible neurologic damage in the infant prevented...

...Another study also observed that a maternal vegetarian diet in pregnancy had a fivefold higher risk of producing infants with hypospadias.[51]

The American Dietetic Association found that vegetarian diets may be more common among adolescents with eating disorders than in the general adolescent population, and that professionals should be aware of adolescents who limit food choices and exhibit symptoms of eating disorders

I admit my post is quote heavy but I don't have time (should be working!) to paraphrase all the points. You can find all this on the vegan wikipedia entry.

[steelcobra]

Another set of problems with Vegan concepts is that they don't take into account the fact that even the most earth-conscious farming techniques kill millions of small field animals every year. And that even if they grew all of their food themselves, they would still be killing plants in order to feed themselves.
http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/images/burger.jpg
http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/images/bigpot6.jpg

[Thefremen]

Fact is, Human beings aren't born with 4 stomachs so we can get every last calorie of energy from plants, so as Steelcobra said it would take a hell of a lot more resources to feed humanity if we were all vegans. Don't know how much more I can add until we hear something from the other side.

[Silver_Derstin]

We can also take into account the fact that the human jaws / mouth is made to cut plants and chew meat (incisives and molars), therefore our body is made to accomodate both. Not only that, but our bodies are also optimized to eat cooked food, as our jaws are not powerful enough to cut raw red meat anymore and our stomach can far more easily extract nutrients from cooked products (both meat and plants).

[nightwng2000]

There is also the issue of financial cost.

Really, I like a good black bean veggie burger from time to time. But the patties are seriously expensive. Even food with "less fat" tends to be more expensive than the "regular" food. Whether it's TV dinners or ground beef, the stuff that supposedly better for you health wise dips deeper into your wallet.

I've often said that if you can make a fake stake that tastes good, doesn't kill me, and is cheaper than the regular, I'll happily switch. Not because I'm more concerned about animals than humans, but because I'm more concerned with my financies then next my health.

Hey, I speak from the side of someone who makes a mere $26k per year, has a 10 year old child, and has diabetes, high blood pressure, and is about 50-60 pounds overweight. Money takes priority, and eating something that better for me and tastes good takes back seat to how much it costs.

[Tollwutig]

You know I was really hoping this one would generate some debate, but I guess we're all meat eaters on here.

[Dagrak]

You know I was really hoping this one would generate some debate, but I guess we're all meat eaters on here.

If it helps I can switch sides for a bit.

Done!! You are now a Vegan.

[Tollwutig]

Changed Dagrak's side to supporting vegetarianism.

[Dagrak]

OK lets examine the principals of veganism:

1) Prevention of cruelty to animals. Its commonly known that animals are generaly not kept in a suitable condition before being killed. They are often cramped together in extremely tight cages, given little care save for basic food and when brought into a slaugtherhouse often die frightened due to the smell of death around them and the sounds of other animals. This might sound like a hippy conversation to be thinking about animal health but it also applies to your own health. In bad conditions animals are subjected to a higher chance of disease and ill health. This gives an increased chance of you catching said illness. It also leads to a poorer quality of food, particuarly with milk and eggs if we're sticking with a vegetarian diet (instead of pure vegan). Animals which are given better conditions (which is sadly not cost effective for the average farmer) have been clearly shown to produce better food/eggs/milk and produce more offspring.

In counter to my own argument earlier animals still present a use even when not used for food. Cows for example produce a very rich manure(sp?) which can be used to improve crops and they have routinely been used as tractor substitutes throughout history.

2) Health. Contrary to what many believe there is a lot of scientific evidence in favour of a pure vegan diet over an omnivorous diet. vegans for example suffer far less from Ischaemic heart Disease (so very common among over 40's) and typicaly have a lower body mass index. Despite claims that they lose out on certain vitamins there are a lot of alternatives which provide the same vitamins if not similar to deal with the issue. In addition many vitamins can be taken as supplements.

The Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine says that one small scale study has observed that a vegan diet can reduce blood cholesterol in people with, and significantly reduce the complications of Type 2 diabetes.

In criticism to my own point about health issues many physicians believe that a well planned vegan lifestyle and the use of supplements can easily overcome any concerns about health.

3) Enviromental preservation. Living an entirely vegan lifestyle can actually help improve the resources we have left remaining:

People who adopt a vegan diet to reduce resource consumption or ecological footprint extend the idea of environmental vegetarianism to all animal products. The fundamental rationale is that each additional trophic level in a food chain passes on only a fraction of the energy it consumes, so a diet that consists of plant products rather than animal products will generally use significantly less of all resources, and indirectly cause less environmental damage.

A study by Gidon Eshel and Pamela Martin, assistant professors of geophysics at the University of Chicago, compares the CO2 production resulting from various human diets. They find that a person switching from the typical American diet to a vegan diet would, on average, reduce CO2 production significantly more than switching to a hybrid vehicle. They go on to recommend a vegan diet for this reason, as well as the potentially adverse health effects of dietary animal fats and proteins.[26] They go on to support their claims by referencing various studies linking animal fats to cardiovascular diseases and animal proteins to cancer.

And now, cost. Contrary to what people may believe living a vegan lifestyle can actually be considerably cheaper then an omnivorus lifestyle. For example various vegetables, beans etc can be ordered in vast quantities allowing for many days use from a single purchase. Meat on the other hand is generally very expensive and typicaly only serves for one meal. Unlike meat, the average home user can actually grow various vegetables from their own homes, such as tomatoes, pumpkins etc. Whilst it may seem like a lot of work a little care and attention can significantly reduce your shopping spendage and there is no need to destroy your garden to do so. Even for those who don't have the luxury of a garden there are various vegetables that can be grown inside and allotments are still available to hire out in certain places.

All in all despite the fear factor of giving over to a vegan lifestyle it is not as terrible an experience as you might think.


All quotes taken from the wikipedia article cos my laziness knows no bounds

[Tollwutig]

Well I figured we'd have a few more vegetarians. I am hoping Thanksgiving had an issue with the lack of posts here. I will try to think of something to debate this week, but the lack of participation is kinda taking my heart out of it.