Gamer Bill of Rights

[ezacharyk]

Has the ECA made any decision on putting together a Gamer Bill of Rights?

By this I mean a list of grievances that game developers, publishers and retailers have forced on consumers.

Some suggestions that come to mind are as follows:

No DRM. We don't need it and don't want it. We want to be able to install our game as many times as we want.

No region coding. We want to play games from all over the world.

Let us return open games. If a game sucks, we want our money back. Not just the store credit from a trade in. Also, PC games should be trade able.

I am sure that members of the ECA can come up with more and they can be better worded.

This is something that I feel is needed. We need to hold the suppliers of our entertainment to some level of accountability.

[beemoh]

* Stop pandering to the ratings boards and censorship pressure groups. Seriously.

[kurisu7885]

Companies should defend their products and not expect their consumers to do it for them.

Lookin at you EA.

[Conejo]

Nintendo, Microsoft, and Sony all need to allow for AO games. there is no reason to have a game rating if it's unavailable for use.

stop arbitrarily raising prices and keeping them high for extended amounts of time.

[ezacharyk]

I would like to volunteer to write this bill of rights up all nice and professional.

It would be nice to have it all written up with each right explained thoroughly with the responsible parties listed.

I need more of them though.

[ezacharyk]

Here is another one from me:

We want demos. We want to try before we buy. Games are about the gameplay and we cannot get a true representation of gameplay from a trailer alone. Let us try before we buy.

[ZippyDSMlee]

Zippys gamer’s bill of rights

1.RIGHT OF RETURN, it’s time to stop treating consumers like thief’s, I don’t care if there’s a15% charge to return it as long as I can return the stinking pile of crap.
2.Limited Online activation, No game with single player content should be forced to be solely activated online, a phone option(default) and full offline mode(via patch 6-10 months after launch) must be part of all PC game plans.
3.DRM, what wastes more money I wonder wasting millions on protection systems that’s cracked in days or weeks or treating the consumer like thief’s.
4. Beign respectful of software and devices that protects consumers from damaged disc or data, that lets them manages their data so that they can easily use it when they want (protection of emulation software and devices, multi use devices, backup playing devices,no dsic/drm cracks,trainers,ect,ect), the devices/software is not the problem the sites that sale or give away roms are go after them and the software pirates that sell copied games, picking on the enthusiasts who actually will buy 2 or 3 consoles to play with them will only lose you more hard core gamer support.
5. Consumer CP/IP protection if I have a rom or image of a game (new or old) that I own the retail version of you have no right to complain over CP/IP grounds even if the versions conflict, the toll is paid so step off.

6. Proper DLC management and receipts, if I buy something online I want to be able to re download it for as long as the company is functional, rental should work in the same way giving a 48 hour grace period to file corrupted data issues and try the download again however it will time out after a while it is a rental after all.
a paper trail option of 1$ a month would be a nice back up to ensure the consumer has a record of his transactions.
7. Proper replacement program, no more than 5$ a item to have it TRADED for a working disc, case, key or manual for the life of the production of the game, limit it to 2 games/keys a year, those who abuse the system will be charged 50% more of the new going rate price of EACH of the game and that will be applied to their credit record if not paid in a timely manner.

8. Transfer of ownership of retail “online” games this includes steam and MMOs if I want to sell it off then I can sell it off and the new owner takes up management of the account and or game.
For pure DLC a charge of no more than 12% of the going rate for the trading the item from accounts and that’s charged to the one getting it not both.

9.Right of control through software or hardware manipulation consumers should be offered and granted full control over the control of a game, the days of mindless cookie cutter layouts need to end.

10.Right of cheating
The consumer has the right to tweak the code of games for better enjoyment of games in single player settings, blocking this is a violation of gamers rights.
For online games a cheat sever with some management of what cheats may run would be up to either the games maker or offer player servers run by players to get the most out of games, cheating is only bad when it breaks the flow of the game, jump, health, ammo, weapon and other tweaks are good ways to make the game maintain interest and fix blatantly bad games.

Online cheating can be easily managed via cheat servers; single player cheats can be managed through a streaming cheat system that works with a online server to prune known code that’s been blacklisted due to errors or “core feature” circumvention, with a streaming cheat server you can protect both the user, software and the “product”.



got 10 items covered control,cheating,returns and gray area stuff as well as DRM and protections and online crap.

edit
demos are nice,at least have 15-25% of the game playable in the demo.
1 level is not enough to judge a game over unless its a few levels into the game showing most of tis gameplay options..

[ezacharyk]

Nice list Zippy.

Right now I would like to avoid making compromises and admitting any amount of what we would be willing to pay.

So instead of saying we are willing to pay a 15% restocking fee on a returned game, let's leave it at simply being able to return the game.

Let the retailers negotiate into something we are willing to accept.

But good list.

[ZippyDSMlee]

Nice list Zippy.

Right now I would like to avoid making compromises and admitting any amount of what we would be willing to pay.

So instead of saying we are willing to pay a 15% restocking fee on a returned game, let's leave it at simply being able to return the game.

Let the retailers negotiate into something we are willing to accept.

But good list.

I understand that but mew brains is a process, so to get the quirky thoughts out they need to be done so in a set. *lick*

I can come up with ideas,but I lack the focus to polish them, all I can do is share them and hope people do not mistaken manure for sht :P

Let me think aloud for a min
Returns

Online activation

DRM

CP/IP ownage issue

Control over control

Cheating.

Gray aera devices/software or a better name A.M.E.P.S(
after market enthusiast products and software).

DLC and digidistro management and trade.



TO clearfiy the demo rant what we need is at least 2 whole levels/maps with a good bit of the game play on them, my train of thought leads me to believe they can slop a couple random levels together and script out a non cannon tut or gosh "demo",ripping the first level or so out of a game for a demo is a bad idea.

For instance Bioshock, IMO the demo would have been better set in most/half of fort frolic that would have codified the experience for me and told me I could have waited and saved me time and frustration on it.

Devs are so rushed they can not do a proper demo anymore, but I guess I am thinking to much, lets start with simi mandatory demos before we get into specifics I guess.....altho i my trains of thoughts..at least for the ones that are running some of this stuff needs to be brought up NOW.

[ezacharyk]

TO clearfiy the demo rant what we need is at least 2 whole levels/maps with a good bit of the game play on them, my train of thought leads me to believe they can slop a couple random levels together and script out a non cannon tut or gosh "demo",ripping the first level or so out of a game for a demo is a bad idea.

For instance Bioshock, IMO the demo would have been better set in most/half of fort frolic that would have codified the experience for me and told me I could have waited and saved me time and frustration on it.

Devs are so rushed they can not do a proper demo anymore, but I guess I am thinking to much, lets start with simi mandatory demos before we get into specifics I guess.....altho i my trains of thoughts..at least for the ones that are running some of this stuff needs to be brought up NOW.

I agree on the Demo thing. A demo should show off the best aspects of the game. IF a character has some really cool powers, show those off in the demo. I doesn't matter if those powers don't show up until halfway through the game, we at least know they are there.

Also, give us a level that shows the best of what the engine can do and is fun to play.

First levels are a no no. That will be our first taste of the game when we buy it. We want something to look forward to when we buy the game, not something to dread.

[beemoh]

Unless the servers are paid for by a sub (IE: for an MMOG), dedicated server software must be made available to people who own a copy of the game.

(This means you, EA)

On that note: no part of the game should be locked away based on my performance online- IE: no online achievements.

[ZippyDSMlee]

Unless the servers are paid for by a sub (IE: for an MMOG), dedicated server software must be made available to people who own a copy of the game.

(This means you, EA)

On that note: no part of the game should be locked away based on my performance online- IE: no online achievements.

thats to vague, any game to have a SP campaign should not have online achievements solely, an online game may have online achievements ,but to use an achievement system as bait for a subscription plan is a big no no.

[Icehawk]

thats to vague, any game to have a SP campaign should not have online achievements solely, an online game may have online achievements ,but to use an achievement system as bait for a subscription plan is a big no no.

Zippy be correct.

Sadly though that seems to be trend now. To many MMORGPs, to much money be asked etc etc sssooo lets lead them in with "free" then sell them a subscription for real life money for in-game only items/events. Questionable morality at best.

[ZippyDSMlee]

Zippy be correct.

Sadly though that seems to be trend now. To many MMORGPs, to much money be asked etc etc sssooo lets lead them in with "free" then sell them a subscription for real life money for in-game only items/events. Questionable morality at best.

frankly if I can build a customized character with real money I would not mind that, I would rather put 100$ into a game for the first 2-3 months than mindlessly grind through poorly deved crap.


Would really love on COH or FF11 if I could pay off the weapon level locks or enhancement locks or whatnot.

it would rock in COH if for 10$ I could use lvl 2 enhancements of the bat,or for 5$ a pop buy any of the lvl 2 or 3 powers I want, its a numbers game so equalizing PVP will be easy I am just interested in having fun and not grinding my mind/time away.

[ezacharyk]

Here are a couple of articles I found through Digg today.

They fit the bill fairly well minus a couple of points.

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1558,2286801,00.asp?kc=ETRSS02129TX1K0000532

OEMs: Stop Using Intel Onboard Graphics
This should be obvious. Yeah, Intel graphics solutions are cheap. And trust me, unsuspecting consumers who think they're getting powerful, up-to-date computers get what they pay for. Simply said, they're crap for games, unless the games are limited to Puzzle Quest and Peggle. If someone who unwittingly bought an Intel graphics-crippled system grew curious about, say, The Witcher or Gears of War, said consumer is out of luck. Computer makers, here this: Put in a real damn graphics card, or make it well known and advertised that your Intel-graphics-laden doorstops are good for nothing besides Web surfing and doing email. Perhaps a giant, neon-orange sign on each PC stating "NOT FOR GAMING" is called for.

Somebody Step Up and Advocate
PC gaming is actually in a very good place right now, but there doesn't seem to be anybody saying so. The PC Gaming Alliance has been more or less silent since its big coming out meeting at Game Developer's Conference. It's been a couple of months, but I have a nagging recollection from that meeting that they were supposed to, like, do something? If they're not going to, we need another body that will get the word out to the world that PC gaming is alive, well, and has a solid future.



These two are pretty good. I like the idea of PC manufacturers selling affordable PCs that are game compatible. It would certainly expand the market.

The second one is needed because there seems to be a lot of inaction in advocacy coming from the industry.

http://www.bit-tech.net/columns/2008/04/24/making_gaming_better/1

Four: Don't believe the hype
Why are games hyped? Because it works! Why are games based on movie licenses and released without a demo? Because it works! The only way this will stop is when gamers start seeing through the hype and demanding a playable demo before buying. If screenshots are provided by the developer, can you trust them? Gameplay videos are a much better option, but nothing beats a playable demo. Don't be tricked into pre-ordering a game nobody has played yet. You deserve to see what you are buying, but you have to demand it.

Six: Don't defend the indefensible
We hate it when gaming gets attacked in the media, but do we ever stop to see if they have a point? Manhunt, GTA, Bully – these are the games that attracted big media attention were labelled as gratuitously violent. The developers know that they will be able to shock the media into giving them free PR, and know that every gamer will leap to their defence even when the game in question isn't well liked (GTA being an exception).

To the mainstream media, Manhunt is a typical PC game, though we know better. Don't defend that view without thinking – be the first to stand up and say this is not true. Point out what is good about gaming and don't be tricked into playing the Manhunt PR department's game. Games sold purely due to shocking violence should not be the public face of gaming.

Eight: Try to buy direct
Most people know that buying direct from the developer earns the dev a bigger share than buying from a store, but do you have any idea how much difference it can be? In some cases it's a tenfold difference! I've nothing against publishers and retailers, but the whole system collapses if the guys making the games don't do well. It makes a huge difference if you can buy direct, and if your favourite developer doesn't sell direct, email them and let them know you would buy direct if you could. It takes five minutes.


Again, we demand demos.

Stand up for your own games. We will eventually get tired of defending them for you.

We want more purchase options. We would buy direct from the developer if needed.

[ZippyDSMlee]

Here are a couple of articles I found through Digg today.

They fit the bill fairly well minus a couple of points.

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1558,2286801,00.asp?kc=ETRSS02129TX1K0000532



These two are pretty good. I like the idea of PC manufacturers selling affordable PCs that are game compatible. It would certainly expand the market.

The second one is needed because there seems to be a lot of inaction in advocacy coming from the industry.

http://www.bit-tech.net/columns/2008/04/24/making_gaming_better/1



Again, we demand demos.

Stand up for your own games. We will eventually get tired of defending them for you.

We want more purchase options. We would buy direct from the developer if needed.

mmmmmmmm On board vid chip sets are good backup/office solutions hell Intel is better than s3 chrome half the time, its fools who think vid chipsets can handle modern gaming that are the problem.

and if you do alil digging you can get a cheap card put into the unit that would be 10X more powerful.

But the problem is PC gaming is not for casuals...sorry......you need to understand to much in order to trouble shoot issues and just mantian the freaking OS.
================================================== =======
I replied to the article :P


One: Don't act like a jerk online.
Reasonable and realistic but that goes beyond gamers dose it not?

Two: Confront bad behaviour online
The trouble is confrontation can get you banded no matter the intention, I might be part A hole but I am a nice my exp for online is confrontation leads to trouble more often then not, if you are polite and subtle you might can defend and distract from the flaming or word fighting but still....

Three: Buy the games
this dose not work for me on 2 levels I buy used at heavy discount becuse I no longer buy into the hype of shallow poorly made modern gaming, after a few broken PC ports and crapfests on the console I will check out any game first before I buy unless I can get it for under 20, but my point is mediocre 40$+ un returnable games suck and are hurting the industry more than the small proration of the consumers that buck the herd don black paint and wear tinfoil hats.

Four: Don't believe the hype
Oh god yes....Bioshock was frist billed as a FPS RPG and by the time launch rolled around it was a consoletard shooter with training wheels....it almost makes deus ex 2 lok good....

Five: Seek out niche games
How about seek out B and beyond games, even tho they have a ton of issues I enjoyed Infernal and Alpha prime,Infernal has some great bad dialog and decent game mechanics it could polish but its surprisingly fun,Alpha prime has a ton of issues and is truly built like a AAA title(bland level design wonky weapons,ect,ect) I even got the stream infected version...i found it had steam after I bought it >< oh well thats what non steam versions are for, still tho ti has issues and bugs, all in all get away from AAA over hpyed titles and try the B range of unknown sadly it dose not get worse than the rushed over hyped AAA titles...

Six: Don't defend the indefensible
And don't defend anti consumer practices by the game industry.

Seven: Embrace newcomers
I don't mind newcomers its the Gdamn casual focus of the industry thats rushing products and not finishing or polishing them or pulls a Bioshock and waters stuff down so much its like it has training wheels, its clear casuals need there own level of difficulty and us "real" gamers need our games back not these short sighted crapfefests.

Eight: Try to buy direct
Ya? when you are given a choice between a physical copy of your mediocre title that you can crack and make sure it works out of the box 10 years from now or pay 10+% more to download something thats needs the net to "work", sorry until they offer full offline modes with digi distro I can live without the bloat/spy/mal ware known as steam, even D2D has gone online activation, IMO digidistro should be half price of retail boxed items simply because you are getting less product with more quirks.


pendragon
I believe it will work as well drop game prices 20-30$ you will almost double new game sales, at this point and time I fight hard for my consumer rights because games cost to damn much,if they would lower the price I would be less inclined to buy used and rail agnist bad games.
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Price is a BIG issue with no return mechanism it sucks hard, and for digi distro games the online actuation system could be use to blank/disable the game but they of coarse always thinking of their interests first and for most.....

If games were 30$ lower you would nearly double sales and lower piracy , piracy IMO as 2 things going for it bucking the system in place as a boycotting fight the man thing and out of need due to lack of money if you lower the price you will gain a greater audience across all classes and you will have some of those who rail agisnt it buy in because its set at a reasonable price.


IMO games should not be more than 2 DVDs, when you get into collector box sets you can charge whatever you want,however games should never go above the 40$ mark.

[ezacharyk]

Companies should defend their products and not expect their consumers to do it for them.

Lookin at you EA.

I am going to reemphasize this one.

We are not your personal guard dogs. Do your own dirty work.

[ZippyDSMlee]

I am going to reemphasize this one.

We are not your personal guard dogs. Do your own dirty work.

We are also not pigs(well some of us anyway) so stop selling us slop.

[beemoh]

Enough with the patches

If your game's broken at retail, recall it and replace the discs. Don't rush your game out early as a cash grab and then make me download crap to make it work later.

Make more games available for longer

Yes, digital distribution's improving this. But I want to be able to walk into a store more than three hours after a game's release and buy a brand new copy sealed in its box. I don't know if this is the fault of the production side of the industry not pressing games for very long, or the fault of the retailers prefering to buy in very few new copies, concentrating on the second hand market, and I don't care. Just fix it.

I'm happy to buy second hand. I'm not happy for it to be a necessity so quickly.

Speaking of which: more legacy hardware, please

This isn't as important as it was, given that consoles are increasingly using more standard memory cards for storage- PS3 using Memory Stick and Wii using SD cards- but that doesn't solve the issue of me not being able to save my progress in any new GC games I happen to get because my two GC memory cards are full and I can't get any new ones.

Similarly, I'd like to be able to get shiny new controllers (or more importantly, TV leads and power supplies) without their wear and tear for all my old consoles, bonus points if they come with adaptors for modern backwards compatible systems. This doesn't have to be a big section in my local branch of GAME, I'm happy to buy direct. Just make them available.

[ZippyDSMlee]

Enough with the patches

If your game's broken at retail, recall it and replace the discs. Don't rush your game out early as a cash grab and then make me download crap to make it work later.

Make more games available for longer

Yes, digital distribution's improving this. But I want to be able to walk into a store more than three hours after a game's release and buy a brand new copy sealed in its box. I don't know if this is the fault of the production side of the industry not pressing games for very long, or the fault of the retailers prefering to buy in very few new copies, concentrating on the second hand market, and I don't care. Just fix it.

I'm happy to buy second hand. I'm not happy for it to be a necessity so quickly.

Speaking of which: more legacy hardware, please

This isn't as important as it was, given that consoles are increasingly using more standard memory cards for storage- PS3 using Memory Stick and Wii using SD cards- but that doesn't solve the issue of me not being able to save my progress in any new GC games I happen to get because my two GC memory cards are full and I can't get any new ones.

Similarly, I'd like to be able to get shiny new controllers (or more importantly, TV leads and power supplies) without their wear and tear for all my old consoles, bonus points if they come with adaptors for modern backwards compatible systems. This doesn't have to be a big section in my local branch of GAME, I'm happy to buy direct. Just make them available.

patches are ok IMO the trouble is when they bum rush a project slop 1 patch on a broken game and think its fixed.

I'd rather hunt,kill and mount my old game than buy it for 30$ because they are still printing it.... the way they do it now you can find new unopened games through liquidation/wholesale sites for 20$...finding a 2-4 year old game new is not that hard.

legacy hardware....I can find AV adapters for my staturn and DC even SVGA cords controllers memecards these are not hard to find online new and used at reasonable prices.... frankly I would like an adapter made that can use the new consoles memcard so I can save more data of my old games.

[beemoh]

patches are ok IMO the trouble is when they bum rush a project slop 1 patch on a broken game and think its fixed.

No. No patches at all. It's become a crutch for poor development, and this should be penalised properly.

If a devco wants to update the engine in with additional free content (or even paid content if the updates are non-critical), then fine. Proper bugsplatting, however, should be done prior to release.

I'd rather hunt,kill and mount my old game than buy it for 30$ because they are still printing it.... the way they do it now you can find new unopened games through liquidation/wholesale sites for 20$...finding a 2-4 year old game new is not that hard.

Nobody said they had to stay on the shelves at full price- this can mean a better price reduction system, or just more budget re-releases.

If anything, prices would have to come down to remain competitive versus new titles, and new titles would drop in price simply due to economies of scale.

frankly I would like an adapter made that can use the new consoles memcard so I can save more data of my old games.

On that note, I did last night find a third-party USB GameCube memory card- but I shouldn't be having to go through third parties for this. Really, I should be able to copy GC saves to SD card via Wii if saving directly is technically impossible, but a proper, new GC memory card would be the ideal.

[ZippyDSMlee]

beemoh;77139]No. No patches at all. It's become a crutch for poor development, and this should be penalised properly.

If a devco wants to update the engine in with additional free content (or even paid content if the updates are non-critical), then fine. Proper bugsplatting, however, should be done prior to release.

Proper bugsplatting yes however the dev is becoming the middle man the publisher is setting all the dates and rushing all the projects.


Nobody said they had to stay on the shelves at full price- this can mean a better price reduction system, or just more budget re-releases.
interesting conspect, could you expand on this thought any?

If anything, prices would have to come down to remain competitive versus new titles, and new titles would drop in price simply due to economies of scale.
On that note, I did last night find a third-party USB GameCube memory card- but I shouldn't be having to go through third parties for this. Really, I should be able to copy GC saves to SD card via Wii if saving directly is technically impossible, but a proper, new GC memory card would be the ideal.
ya but look at the cost of wherehousing,some companies offset wherehouse cost by gouging on parts and cables.

[beemoh]

interesting conspect, could you expand on this thought any?

Long story short- In order to get over the current industry problems of the bulk of titles not profiting, developers or publishers need to spread the cost of developing a game over more copies*. To do this, it needs to capture those sales otherwise lost to the second hand market.

To that extent, the industry needs to take on a price drop model to do so. Exactly how this can be achieved is another matter. One idea would be simply to re-press one game when the sequel comes out (GTA 3 made most of its money selling additional copies cheap when Vice City and San Andreas came out) or to offer a tiered wholesale model where games become cheaper to buy wholesale after a certain number of copies have shifted, undercutting the second hand market directly.

* = Yes, there are other issues, like making games too expensive for the market, but that's an issue that goes beyond mere retail.

[ZippyDSMlee]

Long story short- In order to get over the current industry problems of the bulk of titles not profiting, developers or publishers need to spread the cost of developing a game over more copies*. To do this, it needs to capture those sales otherwise lost to the second hand market.

To that extent, the industry needs to take on a price drop model to do so. Exactly how this can be achieved is another matter. One idea would be simply to re-press one game when the sequel comes out (GTA 3 made most of its money selling additional copies cheap when Vice City and San Andreas came out) or to offer a tiered wholesale model where games become cheaper to buy wholesale after a certain number of copies have shifted, undercutting the second hand market directly.

* = Yes, there are other issues, like making games too expensive for the market, but that's an issue that goes beyond mere retail.

Let me see if mew brains can zippyfy this without making it into zippy speak, instead of making a glut of copies at 60$ a pop which only 30% might sale in the first year, make alil at a time dropping the price as you go?

I would also like to drop the classics line its pointless would rather just buy the "normal" copy and not get grouged when I do so a year or 2 after release.... but I guess the price drop mechanism deals with that in some way.

[beemoh]

Let me see if mew brains can zippyfy this without making it into zippy speak, instead of making a glut of copies at 60$ a pop which only 30% might sale in the first year, make alil at a time dropping the price as you go?

More or less- it's pretty much what music and film have been doing for ages.

[ZippyDSMlee]

More or less- it's pretty much what music and film have been doing for ages.

Will this make games 15+$ cheaper?
Or just shave 10$ off the price?

[beemoh]

Will this make games 15+$ cheaper?
Or just shave 10$ off the price?

Theoretically, but not immediately. Depends how much the £40 bracket is worth, whether or not it takes the bottom out of the £50 bracket, and most importantly, how willing the developers/publishers/distributors/retailers are to undercut one another in the name of sales, and what knock-on effect this has on other parts of the industry.

[ZippyDSMlee]

Theoretically, but not immediately. Depends how much the £40 bracket is worth, whether or not it takes the bottom out of the £50 bracket, and most importantly, how willing the developers/publishers/distributors/retailers are to undercut one another in the name of sales, and what knock-on effect this has on other parts of the industry.
So if put in place prices would conservatively fall 5-10$ as the the new system stabilizes and ajusts itself, no real big instant effect.

I wonder if the industry even cares,it seems hey prefer the seemingly random profits to lower but stable ones.

[ezacharyk]

I get where Beemoh is coming from. They already do this for "Platinum" etc. The idea would be to sell the game at $50-60 at first. 1-3 months later drop the price to about $40-50. Half a year to a year later drop it to $20-30. Then keep that price steady for a year or so before dropping it to $10-20.

It is simple enough to do, but the industry as a whole is too focused on "blockbuster" game releases that they have lost sight of the long term potential of games.

But it basically boils down to publishers and developers maintaining games they have released beyond the first 3 months.

I am also a big fan of the idea of not releasing a game until all bugs are fixed. If after a release, the developer finds bugs that need fixed, they should include some DLC that would make it worth the effort to download it. Bug fixes should never be pushed on the gamer without something to make up for the crap you shoveled on us.

[ZippyDSMlee]

I get where Beemoh is coming from. They already do this for "Platinum" etc. The idea would be to sell the game at $50-60 at first. 1-3 months later drop the price to about $40-50. Half a year to a year later drop it to $20-30. Then keep that price steady for a year or so before dropping it to $10-20.

It is simple enough to do, but the industry as a whole is too focused on "blockbuster" game releases that they have lost sight of the long term potential of games.

But it basically boils down to publishers and developers maintaining games they have released beyond the first 3 months.

I am also a big fan of the idea of not releasing a game until all bugs are fixed. If after a release, the developer finds bugs that need fixed, they should include some DLC that would make it worth the effort to download it. Bug fixes should never be pushed on the gamer without something to make up for the crap you shoveled on us.

currently they are shoving us more crap in the form of new games....mmm grap....

it's true patches are used even more now as a cheap excuse to launch a game early...I do not know why I bother giving the industry the benefit of the doubt and alil wiggle room they'll just cock it up..

[KN]

You do all know how easy this thread can be spinned into "GAMERS BELIEVE THEY ARE ENTITLED TO MORE RIGHTS THAN OTHER PEOPLE", right?

I mean, I would do that. It's not even hard.

[ZippyDSMlee]

You do all know how easy this thread can be spinned into "GAMERS BELIEVE THEY ARE ENTITLED TO MORE RIGHTS THAN OTHER PEOPLE", right?

I mean, I would do that. It's not even hard.

Your point being?
they took away the right of return as a profit increasing scheme it was never about pirates, hell the whole media industry started to do that to save pennies on bad media.

And we want them to stop every other nickel and dime shceme as well, the game industry is heading fast to a handful of main publisher/studios thats only to make things worse and worse unless we the consumers try and get them on a more balanced path.

[KN]

Just that the entire idea of said bill of rights is silly.

And boneheadedly nationalistic. There are people in other countries that have no idea what a bill of rights is.

Sayin' dis because no one else does.

[ZippyDSMlee]

Just that the entire idea of said bill of rights is silly.

And boneheadedly nationalistic. There are people in other countries that have no idea what a bill of rights is.

Sayin' dis because no one else does.

You saying it because its a slow day and you need to troll some, its nothing new we all do it now and then, prehpas you do not comprehend what a bill of rights is ya crazy foreigner(I kid :P)
Well a bill of rights is like yyyuuurrr Verklaring der Rechten van den Mensch en van den Burger.....god what a long name anyways what want is alike that only tis a consumer bill of rights, what it hopes to do is setup a dialog and communication between the consumers and corporations and ask them to use better lube when they iz screwing our arses out.

It sets up a few non ambiguous rules for them to try and follow, sometimes it works sometimes its laughed at because those in power look down on the small peoples of the world.

[KN]

Yes, I do need to troll. And holy christ you spoke fluent Dutch what the **** is going on?

[ZippyDSMlee]

Yes, I do need to troll. And holy christ you spoke fluent Dutch what the **** is going on?

Wiki?

its a shame I can't wiki everything...then mew could speak fluent English too...


It dose'nt hurt to ask the corporations to balance thee greed..of coarse more often than not it will wind up like the knight who answered the dragon "Well done?"


for the Dragon asked "How do you like your steak?..

is it me or is the spoiler code broken?

[ezacharyk]

KN

The idea behind this is that consumers are quickly losing their rights to large faceless corporations. We don't have to take it.

Also, many of these rights are transferable between industries. Take the retail return policy. This could easily apply to movies and music as well. Both of those lost the ability to return open media a long time ago. Why shouldn't we be able to return something that does not meet our expectations? DRM is transferable as well.

I would also ask how you would feel if you went to the stoe to buy some movie you have been looking forward to and brought it home only to find that it was unwatchable. The sound skipped. Some frames of the film are displayed upside down. Scenes play in reverse. And right at the climax, the whole thing fails? I would be ticked off and the movie industry knows that. That is why they make sure that the movie plays properly before it even hits retail.

Why should we allow game developers to do the equivalent? They currently release games that are filled bugs almost to the point of being unplayable. IT should not be that way. Games should be released only after they are completely finished.

There are a lot of rights that other mediums allow that the game industry doesn't. Then there are some rights that no one is allowed.

We simply want them.

Also the term "Bill of Rights" is nothing more than saying that these are a list of rights in one simple location.

[ZippyDSMlee]

KN

The idea behind this is that consumers are quickly losing their rights to large faceless corporations. We don't have to take it.

Also, many of these rights are transferable between industries. Take the retail return policy. This could easily apply to movies and music as well. Both of those lost the ability to return open media a long time ago. Why shouldn't we be able to return something that does not meet our expectations? DRM is transferable as well.

I would also ask how you would feel if you went to the stoe to buy some movie you have been looking forward to and brought it home only to find that it was unwatchable. The sound skipped. Some frames of the film are displayed upside down. Scenes play in reverse. And right at the climax, the whole thing fails? I would be ticked off and the movie industry knows that. That is why they make sure that the movie plays properly before it even hits retail.

Why should we allow game developers to do the equivalent? They currently release games that are filled bugs almost to the point of being unplayable. IT should not be that way. Games should be released only after they are completely finished.

There are a lot of rights that other mediums allow that the game industry doesn't. Then there are some rights that no one is allowed.

We simply want them.

Also the term "Bill of Rights" is nothing more than saying that these are a list of rights in one simple location.

In KNs defense (even tho we all know hims smarter than that) the term bill of rights is a vuge/silly term to thos that live in countries who do not openly battle for their rights.

[Ace_ofspade]

You do all know how easy this thread can be spinned into "GAMERS BELIEVE THEY ARE ENTITLED TO MORE RIGHTS THAN OTHER PEOPLE", right?

I mean, I would do that. It's not even hard.

Yeah, reads like something Buckley would write about "Gamer" being a lifestyle, with a holiday and a religion and a king, and that people like the evil Jack Thompson and Hilary Clinton "shouldn't **** with us".

Cue circlejerk.

[ZippyDSMlee]

Yeah, reads like something Buckley would write about "Gamer" being a lifestyle, with a holiday and a religion and a king, and that people like the evil Jack Thompson and Hilary Clinton "shouldn't **** with us".

Cue circlejerk.

is KN cabple and willing to unleash it willingly tho?

[GoodRobotUs]

I personally don't think the problem here is that most gamers need a 'new' set of Rights, they simply need to put their foot down about corporations adhering to the 'old' set of Rights.

To put it more in context, organisation spend millions on campaigns arguing the 'spirit' of consumer rights, and completely ignoring the letter of them, in law, this would be considered a massive breach of ethics, officers are expected to obey what the law is not what their own personal opinion tells them it should be, and yet corporations have been getting away with this for years. It's there that the Buck needs to be stopped, and once stopped, then you will see organisations a lot less inclined to take liberties with peoples rights, because they'll actually have to understand what those rights are.

[ZippyDSMlee]

I personally don't think the problem here is that most gamers need a 'new' set of Rights, they simply need to put their foot down about corporations adhering to the 'old' set of Rights.

To put it more in context, organisation spend millions on campaigns arguing the 'spirit' of consumer rights, and completely ignoring the letter of them, in law, this would be considered a massive breach of ethics, officers are expected to obey what the law is not what their own personal opinion tells them it should be, and yet corporations have been getting away with this for years. It's there that the Buck needs to be stopped, and once stopped, then you will see organisations a lot less inclined to take liberties with peoples rights, because they'll actually have to understand what those rights are.

So disband the ECA and pucker up the butt lips, because the corporations do not listen and do not care, the only thing you can do is organize and cause them enough grief as so they pay attention to you.

The trouble with corporations is they can buy laws catered to them, so we have to organize even more to try and put balance back into things, a general bill of rights is something we need, look at the air lines consumer rights thing that they managed to get shot down due to the power they hold.

[ezacharyk]

Here is another reference to take a look at.

http://www.cracked.com/article_16196_7-commandments-all-video-games-should-obey.html

This one is not necessarily game 'consumer' rights, but some stuff that annoys gamers in general.

I probably won't be putting anything like this into the Bill of Rights, except #2 as it deals with not releasing broken games.

@ GoodRobotUs

Well, to be honest, this isn't really a 'new' set of rights. This is basically all the old ones repackaged and resent. Basically, this is us putting our foot down and telling them "Enough is Enough!"

There is nothing here so far that did not exist in the beginning or in some form or another.

We simply want these rights back.

But Let's rehash what we have so far:

No DRM. We don't need it and don't want it. We want to be able to install our game as many times as we want.

No region coding. We want to play games from all over the world.

Let us return open games. If a game sucks, we want our money back. Not just the store credit from a trade in. Also, PC games should be trade able.

Companies should defend their products and not expect their consumers to do it for them.

Nintendo, Microsoft, and Sony all need to allow for AO games. there is no reason to have a game rating if it's unavailable for use.

stop arbitrarily raising prices and keeping them high for extended amounts of time.

We want demos. We want to try before we buy. Games are about the gameplay and we cannot get a true representation of gameplay from a trailer alone. Let us try before we buy.

Limited Online activation, No game with single player content should be forced to be solely activated online, a phone option(default) and full offline mode(via patch 6-10 months after launch) must be part of all PC game plans.

Proper DLC management and receipts, if I buy something online I want to be able to re download it for as long as the company is functional, rental should work in the same way giving a 48 hour grace period to file corrupted data issues and try the download again however it will time out after a while it is a rental after all.

Proper replacement program, no more than 5$ a item to have it TRADED for a working disc, case, key or manual for the life of the production of the game, limit it to 2 games/keys a year, those who abuse the system will be charged 50% more of the new going rate price of EACH of the game and that will be applied to their credit record if not paid in a timely manner.

Transfer of ownership of retail “online” games this includes steam and MMOs if I want to sell it off then I can sell it off and the new owner takes up management of the account and or game.
For pure DLC a charge of no more than 12% of the going rate for the trading the item from accounts and that’s charged to the one getting it not both.

Unless the servers are paid for by a sub (IE: for an MMOG), dedicated server software must be made available to people who own a copy of the game.

If your game's broken at retail, recall it and replace the discs. Don't rush your game out early as a cash grab and then make me download crap to make it work later.

Make more games available for longer

Yes, digital distribution's improving this. But I want to be able to walk into a store more than three hours after a game's release and buy a brand new copy sealed in its box. I don't know if this is the fault of the production side of the industry not pressing games for very long, or the fault of the retailers prefering to buy in very few new copies, concentrating on the second hand market, and I don't care. Just fix it.

Speaking of which: more legacy hardware, please

I think that is the gist of it for now. I hope we can all come to an agreement on some more.

[ezacharyk]

Stardock has announced their "Bill of Rights for PC Gamers"

http://www.edge-online.com/blogs/the-gamers-bill-rights

1. Gamers shall have the right to return games that don't work with their computers for a full refund.
2. Gamers shall have the right to demand that games be released in a finished state.
3. Gamers shall have the right to expect meaningful updates after a game's release.
4. Gamers shall have the right to demand that download managers and updaters not force themselves to run or be forced to load in order to play a game.
5. Gamers shall have the right to expect that the minimum requirements for a game will mean that the game will adequately play on that computer.
6. Gamers shall have the right to expect that games won't install hidden drivers or other potentially harmful software without their express consent.
7. Gamers shall have the right to re-download the latest versions of the games they own at any time.
8. Gamers shall have the right to not be treated as potential criminals by developers or publishers.
9. Gamers shall have the right to demand that a single-player game not force them to be connected to the Internet every time they wish to play.
10. Gamers shall have the right that games which are installed to the hard drive shall not require a CD/DVD to remain in the drive to play.

[ZippyDSMlee]

Stardock has announced their "Bill of Rights for PC Gamers"

http://www.edge-online.com/blogs/the-gamers-bill-rights

So I suppose if you hate the game you still can not return it?

[Hal Halpin]

Hey Guys,

This came up in a few of the interviews I did at PAX last weekend, so I thought you should hear it from the horse's mouth. I was encouraged to see the Stardock Bill of Rights. I think it's a good first step in the right direction. That said, they really could/should bring it to the PCGA (PC Gaming Alliance) for vetting. My concern was that it'll be perceived as a publicity stunt intended to win over consumers, rather than a vehicle for effecting change.

In my experience, such broad sweeping change in a category requires consensus. So a good place to start is PCGA, as it's right in their wheelhouse. After that this effort will require weigh-in from EMA (Entertainment Merchants Association) as well, due primarily to the return privileges policy change.

So in short, I'm cautiously optimistic that Stardock has taken a bold position that's so clearly a move in the right direction, but I'm eager to see if they follow through with the required (above) next steps to make it come to fruition.


-Hal.

[GamesLaw]

Hey Guys,

This came up in a few of the interviews I did at PAX last weekend, so I thought you should hear it from the horse's mouth. I was encouraged to see the Stardock Bill of Rights. I think it's a good first step in the right direction. That said, they really could/should bring it to the PCGA (PC Gaming Alliance) for vetting. My concern was that it'll be perceived as a publicity stunt intended to win over consumers, rather than a vehicle for effecting change.

In my experience, such broad sweeping change in a category requires consensus. So a good place to start is PCGA, as it's right in their wheelhouse. After that this effort will require weigh-in from EMA (Entertainment Merchants Association) as well, due primarily to the return privileges policy change.

So in short, I'm cautiously optimistic that Stardock has taken a bold position that's so clearly a move in the right direction, but I'm eager to see if they follow through with the required (above) next steps to make it come to fruition.


-Hal.

It was kinda pulled off as a publicity stunt. I actually went to Stardock/GPG's area right before they unveiled it so I could do some interviews, and they were like "We're about to unveil something really new and cool, check it out!" and they made a big deal about signing it in front of the cameras.

[ezacharyk]

Hey Guys,

This came up in a few of the interviews I did at PAX last weekend, so I thought you should hear it from the horse's mouth. I was encouraged to see the Stardock Bill of Rights. I think it's a good first step in the right direction. That said, they really could/should bring it to the PCGA (PC Gaming Alliance) for vetting. My concern was that it'll be perceived as a publicity stunt intended to win over consumers, rather than a vehicle for effecting change.

In my experience, such broad sweeping change in a category requires consensus. So a good place to start is PCGA, as it's right in their wheelhouse. After that this effort will require weigh-in from EMA (Entertainment Merchants Association) as well, due primarily to the return privileges policy change.

So in short, I'm cautiously optimistic that Stardock has taken a bold position that's so clearly a move in the right direction, but I'm eager to see if they follow through with the required (above) next steps to make it come to fruition.


-Hal.

Thanks for responding to this. When I read their bill of rights, if fell in with my original thoughts on the issue. I would like to see some of it, specifically the return part, to flow over to console gaming as well. There are some pretty bad things on that front as well.

I agree that such sweeping change would require input and vetting from everyone. That includes the PCGA, EMA, ESA and the ECA possibly even the IGDA.

I hope that the ECA will be taking an active part in this development.

Also, I don't see the EMA having a problem with the return parts of it as long as they are getting fully compensated for the returned game from the game's manufacturer. I believe the lack of return policy on media was a direct push from the media industry onto retailers. The retailers probably would have continued to allow returns if not from that pressure.

[Atrayo]

Hi All,

It seems that "Shacknews" has put out a Part 1 interview of 2 a couple days ago with the CEO of Stardock Brad Wardell.

Link (http://www.shacknews.com/featuredarticle.x?id=994)

This is a 4 page interview conducted by Shacknews Nick Breckon.


Shack: So at this point, do you think Games for Windows needs to be more aggressive? Because they have those 21 rules or however many there are, that they hold publishers to--

Brad Wardell: Yeah, but their rules, I don't like some of them. And I met with [Games for Windows GM] Chris Early and those guys over there to discuss this before PAX, and they're onboard, they like it. I mean, they like this concept. And I talked to the PC Gaming Alliance before I went to the show as well. But the thing is that, you know, some of these things are more technical. What we need is..

Shack: Concepts that average consumers can understand?

Brad Wardell: Well yeah, I want something consumers can tangibly understand. And I want something that they--for example, if I sign a contract with Games for Windows, and it says, "I am going to adhere to these standards, and there is a legal punishment if I don't." Page: 2It seems Mr. Hal Halpin's suggestion of running it through the "PC Gaming Alliance" in regards to the announced "Gamer's Bill Of Rights" has already started. :)