The Byron Report is out!

[Ichi]

The waiting is at an end. It's had gamers across the world, especially in the uk, holding their breaths. The first official government sanctioned study into the effects of violence in games on children. We all know that its not just about games but it is very focussed on them.

I'm working on actually reading the report but what I've read from Joystiq and our very own GPvery mild. I havn't come across any comments as games being harmful(correct me if I am wrong, but I require proof) rather a need for a new ratings system.

Gee forgive me, but isn't that what gamers have been telling the government all along?

Open discussion on the byron report

[Ichi]

I have a post up on my blog about reactions to the reporting of it by websites, I will have a better one up when I actually read the Byron report(Its really f'ing long!)

[Soldat_Louis]

Having replied to Byron's call for evidence, I'm quite please that the resulting report is well-balanced, and I'm even more pleased that many gamers replied to this call. Though I won't necessarily agree with each one of her conclusions, I think Dr. Byron is a trustable person to debate with.

[Ichi]

I really don't agree with parents not being allowed to buy games for their kids that the kids wouldn't be able to buy, to me that just seems so invasive in a parents ability to decide what their kids see and don't. When it comes to things like this it's parents decision first, governments second, no other choice

[Conejo]

I really don't agree with parents not being allowed to buy games for their kids that the kids wouldn't be able to buy, to me that just seems so invasive in a parents ability to decide what their kids see and don't. When it comes to things like this it's parents decision first, governments second, no other choice

i also disagree with that. making it illegal to allow a child to play a video game or watch a movie? how soon until it's illegal to let children read books?

[Ichi]

its not just the uk, our country legislaters would prolly do the samething if they could

[Ichi]

I do have an overview of this topic and what 3 sites have said about it on my blog Gametrocity

gamespeech.blogspot.com

[MUTANT SPUD]

i also disagree with that. making it illegal to allow a child to play a video game or watch a movie? how soon until it's illegal to let children read books? You obviously don't have kids, its like a war between parents and the media, my wife and I have to be constantly on guard, scrutinising every detail of every program our girls watch, read or at least approve of every book they get. My view is , Media (all forms including games) 90% harmful, 5% benign and 5% useful. If games like Manhunt (just to use a common example) are banned I won't be rushing to their defence, I think western countries could do with a bit less freedom of speech/choice these days especially with regard to kids. I'd promote the view that most video games, excluding G rated titles, are not suitable for children (anyone under 18) and that gaming is an adult pastime. I want correct labeling of video games first then a review of censorship laws second so that everyone knows where they stand, gamers, parents, retailers and legislators. This phase of technofear will pass in time and games will be become just part of the background like any other technology, the evidence is stacking up against the Jack Thompson's and in my case Angela Conway's, lawmakers just aren't buying their ill informed arguments and they'll soon move on to something else.

[Ichi]

I do not have kids but friends and parents believe in the parents choice, while i may not entirely agree with conejo terminology, i still would be upset if manhunt 2 was banned, if its an adult pastime then why would manhunt have to be banned understanding that it is a pastime for adults?

I've already had an expierence tonight with the free speech thing and to tel you the truth it really is either you have it or you don't. You do not have the freedom of speech if you can do something in one category and not in the other, thats a selective freedom and your ability to decide as to whether or not you can express yourself in the forum isn't guaranteed since they said you were allowed freedom of expression in that forum. Selective freedom of speech isn't a freedom at all, we haven't always had it, our rights are always forfeit in a time of national crisis. But I think Americans are at the point where we will not settle for anything but free speech and I do not understand what is wrong with that?

Going back to the so called "selective freedom of sppech" I just wanted to comment on how is it free when you don't decide where that right applys?

Freedom of speech is the absolute freedom of expression in any forum or category, you can't have less freedom of speech without losing it entirely.

I wasn't putting selective freedom of speech in your mouth, i got on a tangent about how you have the freedom or you don't its as simple as that. I've already been misheard once tonight and i apologize if it appears that way.

[Mr. Blond]

Media (all forms including games) 90% harmful, 5% benign and 5% useful. If games like Manhunt (just to use a common example) are banned I won't be rushing to their defence, I think western countries could do with a bit less freedom of speech/choice these days especially with regard to kids. I'd promote the view that most video games, excluding G rated titles, are not suitable for children (anyone under 18) and that gaming is an adult pastime.

Care to back up your breakdown of harmful vs. useful, or elaborate on the harms? Or how gaming is an exclusively adult pastime? I'm all for parental awareness, but that's a little extreme saying everything but the most innocuous material is harmful, and that anything else would cause harm to kids. What harms are you getting at specifically, and what evidence do you have that they are having a negative effect on our kids and the world at large?

[MUTANT SPUD]

Care to back up your breakdown of harmful vs. useful, or elaborate on the harms? Or how gaming is an exclusively adult pastime? I'm all for parental awareness, but that's a little extreme saying everything but the most innocuous material is harmful, and that anything else would cause harm to kids. What harms are you getting at specifically, and what evidence do you have that they are having a negative effect on our kids and the world at large? Harmful because its stupid, sexist, age inappropriate or advertising dressed up as programming..most childrens programming..not all but most is selling something. All advertising directed at children is a harmful influence..period. Programmes that promote lifestyles or ideologies foreign to mine and by wife's beliefs I consider harmful and counterproductive.Programs that promote unrealistic gender stereotypes or body images are harmful.
I can't see how anyone could say that todays global media and advertising industry has no damaging effect on society, its borne out in the statistics on a host of social ills from eating disorders to credit card debt, the global media is the web that binds the cult of consumerism. Its effect on children can be drastic, speak to a teacher or a child psychologist about how childhood has changed over the last 20 years and how drastically classroom behaviour has deteriorated over the last ten. All these negative influences are linked, its not one thing like games or movies causing more harm than other media, the disease is consumerism and it infects ever facet of modern life.
I'm sounding like a prude but Australian media really is that bad..I can't vouch for Europe or The U.S.A but the standards here are deplorable and don't reflect the values I would hope to instill in my daughters. So apart from nature or science documentaries, a selection of high quality, for the most part locally made kids shows and some of the talent quest shows their viewing is pretty restricted. They play games too and use the internet but its all heavily vetted, I'm not talking about teenagers here they're 5 and 9 and I'm trying to promote good choices from the very beginning, there's plenty of time for the big bad world in the future.
To clarify my comment about gaming being an adult pastime I believe there should be an advertising campaign promoting awareness of the rating system and the fact that next gen game consoles and computers are not toys but sophisticated international communication devices and that a child's age should be taken into consideration when choosing a gaming device. Its a fact that most gamers are adults and that a good proportion of the games contain adult themes and are playable online so why not promote 360,PS3 and PC as adult toys and promote systems such as the DS ,Wii and PS2 as family consoles. Xbox360 and PS3 are most often used as sponsors for sports events or teams here, 360 is linked to the V8 Supercars Racing Series along side Jack Daniels and PS3 is a sponsor of ..I believe... a Football team so from that point of view they're clearly pitching at young adults..their target demographic .Furthermore the quality of children's games is not fantastic, there's not a lot that's going to grab the attention of a 12 year old so naturally they'll want to play more mature titles. Surprisingly TV ads for specific games are not as common on Australian TV as I would have thought given the size of the Industry, if parents saw more ads for games with the rating info on them they'd be more likely to make good choices for their kids rather than just giving them the money to buy what they want..
AARgh..my back's hurting..I need to walk around a bit..I hope I've given more depth to my views. I can tend to sound like a bit of a Nazi when it comes to these issues but its frustrating trying to work with a national media that is self regulated, has a high concentration of ownership and only plays to the lowest common denominator.

[Conejo]

You obviously don't have kids, its like a war between parents and the media, my wife and I have to be constantly on guard, scrutinising every detail of every program our girls watch, read or at least approve of every book they get. My view is , Media (all forms including games) 90% harmful, 5% benign and 5% useful. If games like Manhunt (just to use a common example) are banned I won't be rushing to their defence, I think western countries could do with a bit less freedom of speech/choice these days especially with regard to kids.

so you'll allow civil rights to be abolisihed because it's hard to be a parent?
well excuse me for committing thought-crimes, but that's just lazy parenting.

if you want children who don't learn to think, that's fine, but don't impress your worldview upon me and my family, thanks.

[MUTANT SPUD]

so you'll allow civil rights to be abolisihed because it's hard to be a parent?Not civil rights, freedom of expression in the media.There should be restrictions on what can and cannot be broadcast on TV and radio, lots of countries have a strictly moderated media.
well excuse me for committing thought-crimes, but that's just lazy parenting. No its pro active parenting, its quarantining children from the adult world and letting them experience a childhood. The media is at best a distraction and at worst a malign influence.

if you want children who don't learn to think, that's fine, but don't impress your worldview upon me and my family, thanks. They'll learn to think critically and more creatively if they're kept away from most of the media. I live on the other side of the world to you so you don't have to worry too much about me Goose Stepping into your family room and yanking out your TV cable. Now if you'll excuse me I have to get off my high horse and go to my low bed, perchance to dream of a bleak Orwellian Dystopia governed by the girls from Final Fantasy X.2 and Supernanny Jo Frost. Good Night:D

[rabidkeebler]

Well, in the case of Britain, TIME.com has an interesting article about teen violence. Doesn't say anything about video games or media. It mostly discusses how the parents have difficulties just being parents, social classes crush low income children, and in general everything other than media and video games. I found this interesting since it was posted today (and yesterday was the release of the Byron Report.)

[ezacharyk]

@ Mutant_Spud

I am with you on the Advertisements passing off as children's programming.

It is just as bad in the US. Just about every children's tv show has a line of toys, clothes, games etc. You can't escape it.

You can blame that on the 80's.

Of course I do like to watch my Saturday Morning cartoons. Lot's of good shows, if you only stick to the super hero shows. :D

[Conejo]

@ Mutant_Spud
I am with you on the Advertisements passing off as children's programming.

It is just as bad in the US. Just about every children's tv show has a line of toys, clothes, games etc. You can't escape it.

so am i the only person who grew up watching television and being taught that cartoons are essentially 30-minute commercials? entertaining, yes but obviously designed to sell the product.

i guess if you're going to shelter your children from life, you wouldn't want them to understand what TV is...

[Mark of Cain]

The Daily Mail Responds
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=547008&in_page_id=1
Some steps forward and some steps back but at least she played the games she describes.

[beemoh]

The Daily Mail Responds
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=547008&in_page_id=1
Some steps forward and some steps back but at least she played the games she describes.

I like the up-to the minute photo they use halfway down the page.

Also, the poorly-photoshopped one on the top.

[Monkeythumbs]

making it illegal to allow a child to play a video game or watch a movie? how soon until it's illegal to let children read books?

Nobody has suggested that it will be illegal for a child to play an 18 rated game or for a child to watch an 18 rated movie. It's just illegal to sell them one. That's an important difference.

[ezacharyk]

I like the up-to the minute photo they use halfway down the page.

Also, the poorly-photoshopped one on the top.

That photo is getting some great criticism around the net. It is so bad it's funny.

[MUTANT SPUD]

Well, in the case of Britain, TIME.com has an interesting article about teen violence. Doesn't say anything about video games or media. It mostly discusses how the parents have difficulties just being parents, social classes crush low income children, and in general everything other than media and video games. I found this interesting since it was posted today (and yesterday was the release of the Byron Report.) Could you please post a link to that I'd be interested to read it:)

[MUTANT SPUD]

so am i the only person who grew up watching television and being taught that cartoons are essentially 30-minute commercials? entertaining, yes but obviously designed to sell the product.

i guess if you're going to shelter your children from life, you wouldn't want them to understand what TV is... :) I wasn't allowed to watch cartoons..or the old Batman Series..or Hogan's Heroes..or the News..or six Million Dollar Man or anything much and I grew up to think critically and creatively, I also get a lot of pleasure out of TV when I bother to watch it. Plenty of parents do this, you could call it "hot housing" children, raising them in a strictly controlled environment and developing their strengths while protecting them from the harsh elements of the outside world. My kids obviously do watch TV, its unrealistic not to let them watch anything but limiting what they can watch nudges them in the direction of doing other things..drawing, playing outside together or helping around the house. To be honest I'd rather they sat and played Animal Crossing, Nintendogs or Brain Training than watch TV. If the weather is bad for example.
Hey getting back to topic, when and where can I read the Byron report, I've done a search for it but haven't had much luck.

[Conejo]

Nobody has suggested that it will be illegal for a child to play an 18 rated game or for a child to watch an 18 rated movie. It's just illegal to sell them one. That's an important difference.

oh, really?

I’m asking the prime minister to change legislation so that from 12 upwards children or parents can’t buy games unless it’s for the right age of the child.

this must all be my imagination?

limiting what they can watch nudges them in the direction of doing other things..drawing, playing outside together or helping around the house..

this argument is often used against media.
watching television (or playing games) doesn't negate any other activities, but how you say it implies that it does.

[beemoh]

Hey getting back to topic, when and where can I read the Byron report, I've done a search for it but haven't had much luck.

There's a PDF near the bottom of this page:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7314751.stm

[Pominator]

@ Mutant spud

While I see your point that you would like more proactive work in media moderation I would like to call to task what you said about "keeping children out of the adult world"

I see that as a parent you would want to maintain the illusion that children are young, pure and free of evil, but I gotta tell you man, I came from one of the roughest estates in middle England, where I heard no swearing, saw no violence and said nothing disrespectful (do you like what I did there? Hear, See and Speak no evil), When I first came to this idyllic countryside area in the north of England, I was beset by a complete culture shock, the first thing that happened to me on my first day of new primary school was that I was beaten down and called a "cu**", now this was from children who watched tweenies and telletubbies, had relatively okay parents and lived in this posh lavish lifestyle the same as me, yet they were talking to me in a manner that I found shocking and offensive, yet I heard none of this in the apparently scummy, craphole that was middle England, so I have quickly come to realise this:

A child's "innocence" is an illusion, a protective bubble a parent will create around their child, though with good intentions, I think that the real world could be a lot for a young mind to handle, but the "innocence" factor is imaginary, the longer you can hold on to the idea that your child will do no wrong the better for you, yet at the same time you have to realise: humans are decietful, lying scum who will greet you with their right hand whilst stabbing your back with their left, people will make sure you feel as secure as possible for as long as it is convinient for them, I officially cannot stand a good 95% of the people I know, apart from my parents, my family, nathanael, Jodie and BlackIce, my experience of people from day one has been that of lies, deciet and hatred, yet I, who am a regular gamer, a misantrophic, megalomaniacal, psychotic teen angst trip waiting to explode, am also the same embodiment of childhood innocence which parents believe their children have, I don't drink, swear or smoke, I take care of my body, my friends and family, I do not lie and I never hurt anyone on purpose, yet I have been exposed to the darkest sides of humanity that I know of, when you walk the streets, know who you are walking past baits dogs, takes advantage of mentally troubled girls, deals guns out of the back of his caravan and still walks among society, you can say that there are worse things than violent media, because of all places I would expect to find this stuff, it would not be here, this wonderful, yet steadily degrading, countryside paradise with stonebuilt cottages, a proper barn and butchers (albeit ex murderer butcher- but is there any other kind?!)
and a lovely local community ( bar the chavs) I would have expected it of a middle England place where this so called "innocence" bubble is popped as soon as the child turns 5 so that they don't be corrupted by the real world once they are 12 and introduced to the school drugs culture.

So spuddington, forgive my rant, but could you do me the service of please explaining why someone like me can come out of the back end of a drier with all of the crap still attatched yet go on to lead a life with religion, family values and no substance habits, yet people who live in the best of places are the most corrupted youths I have seen in my life?

[MUTANT SPUD]

So spuddington, forgive my rant, but could you do me the service of please explaining why someone like me can come out of the back end of a drier with all of the crap still attatched yet go on to lead a life with religion, family values and no substance habits, yet people who live in the best of places are the most corrupted youths I have seen in my life? You've just answered your own question, correct me if I'm wrong but your parents didn't spoil you did they? Priveleged homes are often the most dysfunctional, when I was a kid the same was true, the kids who went away to boarding school nearly all came back with drug habits and were obnoxious and in some cases downright dangerous.None of the happy kids I knew were from,"good " homes. You can 100% protect your kids from drugs, violence,gangs etc, you have to start early and you can't slip up for a minute, I don't expect my kids will be untouched by these phenomenon but they will be equipped to deal with them by virtue of the fact of having being educated by a father and mother who have experienced all the seedy aspects of life.
A person's twenties is the time for exploration and sampling the delights of the adult world, I didn't take a drug, get in a fight or commit a crime until I was in my twenties, an age when I could deal with the consequences.Within my own family I have seen the effect of being soft on kids, my parents were almost puritanically strict with my sister and I, my younger brother was treated differently, we'd left home by the time he entered his teens.My parents, for whatever reason, decided to break their own rules and let him make his own choices. They now acknowledge that as a direct result of that lack of close involvement he began taking drugs at 13, skipping school and comitting crime, he now lives more or less as a tramp, in a tent in the bush.
He is miserable, mentally ill from the drugs and has next to no prospects. We're involved with him and take care of him as much as we can but he's ruined, he can't work or maintain relationships.
Keeping kids away from the evils of the world is both viable and necessary, the more they see violence, decadence and stupidity normalised the more readily they will accept it.

[MUTANT SPUD]

There's a PDF near the bottom of this page:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7314751.stm

Cheers Beemoh!:) Now I can do some reading and contribute something meaningful to this thread. Playing "bait the liberals" is an amusing distraction but there's serious discussion to be had.;)

[Conejo]

Keeping kids away from the evils of the world is both viable and necessary.

i'm guessing you've never seen The Virgin Suicides.

[MUTANT SPUD]

i'm guessing you've never seen The Virgin Suicides. Fine, if we're using fiction as a reference, have you seen Carrie, or The Village,or Footloose.. they're just as plausible. And for the record I'm an atheist not a christian fundamentalist like the parents in the movie. My kids will be able to socialise, they do now, they just won't be doing it through Myspace ,MSN or cellular phones, and they won't be hanging around the streets or the shopping centres getting into trouble, if they don't have a plan, a destination and a curfew they won't be going out. The cellular phone thing drives me nuts as well, we plan to buy a spare one for the kids to take when they go out and hand back when they get home.
Look Conejo I've been kind of baiting you out of sheer boredom and because you responded with outrage, I'm what we Australians call a "Stirrer" I rile people It's just my way..you can tell my wife and kids are away by the number of posts I've made over the last 24 hours, If we were sitting face to face we would have come to an understanding hours ago. I don't take back what I posted but I'm not the rigid, stiff necked ogre I've been portraying.Parenting is a journey, every plan you make is subject to change, my kids may go off the rails, they may not but if you have a basic plan and don't succumb to fads, be consistent and fair..well..they'll have a better chance of turning out OK. Now to download that report, the weather's foul here so I might curl up in bed with it.:D..or maybe Ms Byron could curl up with me and read it to me..theres a thought..she's quite something..brainy..pretty..sensible.

[Yukimura]

While I can understand your desire for your kids to grow up right, I think the greatest diservice you can do to a child is Coddle them, and shield them from the world.

My father was Ex military. He didn't try to shield me from the reality of life. He taught me to deal with it and move on.

Did I turn out crazy? Nope. Goofy and with a strange sense of humor yes, but not crazy. I work, I pay my bills, maintain my car, and Play video games and watch movies. I enjoy driving, swimming, and working on computers.

What seperates me from kids that I know who got into drugs, went to jail, became violent?

Parents. It was all about my parents. They didn't shield me, didn't indoctrinate me. They just taught me about the world and let me come to my own conclussions. They didn't make me Lock step with there beliefs or values, but let me decide what I thought was best for me.

Attacking games, movies, books, tv, it's all scapegoating and excuse. It's just BAD parents wanting and Excuse for why there kids were messed up. Oh, sure, you ignored and neglected your kid, and he turned to crime, are you at fault? No, blame the media.

Not that I'm saying thats you, IM' just pointing out an example of the Hippocracy of blaming media for kids problems. It wasn't media that caused Columbine, it was 2 kids whose parents didn't care about them and whose class mates treated them like crap. The VT shooter wasn't some game crazy killer, he was a mentally unstable indvidual on Anti Psychotic medicine who stopped taking his medicine.

Dont try and bs me about Media. Media isn't the problem. Bad Parenting, poverty, social disfunction, and more are the real causes of these problems.

Games just give bad parents something to use as a baby sitter, and when things go wrong, they use it as a scapegoat.

[MUTANT SPUD]

While I can understand your desire for your kids to grow up right, I think the greatest diservice you can do to a child is Coddle them, and shield them from the world.

My father was Ex military. He didn't try to shield me from the reality of life. He taught me to deal with it and move on.

Did I turn out crazy? Nope. Goofy and with a strange sense of humor yes, but not crazy. I work, I pay my bills, maintain my car, and Play video games and watch movies. I enjoy driving, swimming, and working on computers.

What seperates me from kids that I know who got into drugs, went to jail, became violent?

Parents. It was all about my parents. They didn't shield me, didn't indoctrinate me. They just taught me about the world and let me come to my own conclussions. They didn't make me Lock step with there beliefs or values, but let me decide what I thought was best for me.

Attacking games, movies, books, tv, it's all scapegoating and excuse. It's just BAD parents wanting and Excuse for why there kids were messed up. Oh, sure, you ignored and neglected your kid, and he turned to crime, are you at fault? No, blame the media.

Not that I'm saying thats you, IM' just pointing out an example of the Hippocracy of blaming media for kids problems. It wasn't media that caused Columbine, it was 2 kids whose parents didn't care about them and whose class mates treated them like crap. The VT shooter wasn't some game crazy killer, he was a mentally unstable indvidual on Anti Psychotic medicine who stopped taking his medicine.

Dont try and bs me about Media. Media isn't the problem. Bad Parenting, poverty, social disfunction, and more are the real causes of these problems.

Games just give bad parents something to use as a baby sitter, and when things go wrong, they use it as a scapegoat. What you say is true, I'm not addressing bad parents with these statements, only people who should know better. Today is not 20 years ago, today is not even ten years ago, look at how the world has changed in 7 years, since 9/11, look how the media has changed, the whole political/social/media machine is toxic to children. I'm running out of steam with this argument because I'm arguing with people from other countries, specifically the U.S.A, you guys have free speech, a wide variety of media to choose from, you and the Europeans are way ahead of us in many ways. Our free speech laws are open to interpretation, they're implied standards rather than guaranteed. Our media, apart from access to the internet is controlled by literally a handful of people, cable TV is controlled by one company, the digital infrastructure is owned by one private/public partnership, a large proportion of retail occurs on properties owned by two family companies. We now have only 55% of our media locally produced, this doesn't include local franchising of popular overseas shows(like Big Brother etc), how much TV content shown in the U.S.A is produced overseas? I'm not knocking American TV but it has little relevance to me or my children's situation and lifestyle, so therefore I view it as toxic, and avoid it. Your media creates more problems in other countries than you would probably realise, why should we have L.A style street gangs here? Where do the kids get the idea to behave that way?Why are our local programs thin copies of American style programs? Why is American music more popular than Australian music?
Foreign culture is forced upon us, its not forced upon the U.S.A, when your culture is given second place below someone else's then you'll get the picture. We are not the same as you guys, we have our own history and customs which are rapidly being eroded by your foreign influence, and you'd find that opinion in most countries worldwide. Can you understand my siege mentality?, its the kind of frustration that can lead to anti American feeling,not in me I'm a great admirer of the U.S.A, but in other less educated peoples . We have to fight our governments on these matters because they are, infiltrated, for want of a better term , by overseas corporate interests and home grown special interest groups. We've just changed governments and the new people are heading more in the right direction..hope springs eternal.:) I really do enjoy these exchanges they help me refine my hypotheses, they are very stimulating to a work in progress.


A note on The Byron Review: Print it out at work LOL:D, although I did manage to trim 30 pages off by excluding the bibliography, the introduction and all the drawings its still a weighty tome.

[Pominator]

@MS

Thanks for the explanation, I will be back when I can think of an intelligent response, but for the record... I was, and still am, pretty spoiled, but I still see your point old boy

[MUTANT SPUD]

@MS

Thanks for the explanation, I will be back when I can think of an intelligent response, but for the record... I was, and still am, pretty spoiled, but I still see your point old boy Really!..Jesus.. nice work;) I better re read that post so I'm prepared.

[Pominator]

you might be waiting a while, I am kinda only functional properly at night, thats when my clever side comes out...

He likes bananas

Also I think one of the primary issues with modern parenting is that there is no way of guaging just how much attention should be given, I mean my younger sister was positively permaloved by mum and dad... and she has become a total bitch by the age of 10!

yet my older sister recieved the very opposite treatment and is now a soldier who smokes and shoots people with explosive vests!

So I wonder what exactly is the "right" way of parenting, because my younger sister was not allowed on MSN because of the apparent "sexual predators" who are out there on the internet, however I was introduced to MSN, Gaming and the modern lifestyle when it was only in its infancy, when only the super nerds knew what MSN was!

Yet my younger sister has come out a naive young girl with anger issues, yet she was infinitely more protected from the real world than I was, however I can see this as part and parcel of the moving process and the new school so mum and dad did not have enough time for me, yet it would seem I have had just right attention and technology intergration at a young age!

[Conejo]

Also I think one of the primary issues with modern parenting is that there is no way of guaging just how much attention should be given, I mean my younger sister was positively permaloved by mum and dad... and she has become a total bitch by the age of 10!

that falls back to the Nature vs Nurture arguments psychologists have been having forever.

i believe nature has more to do with how we are than the right setting, but ymmv. it's still the parent's duty to develop their child, and no government in the world should shift that responsibility just to blame something else.

[MUTANT SPUD]

This thread has wandered somewhat from the point, lets get the crow bar out and lever it back on to the track. So who's reading the Review and what are your impressions? I managed to get through the first 3 or so chapters last night before sleep overtook me, its fascinating stuff, I don't read much academic writing so its interesting for me to be learning how such reports are constructed and how methods are developed within the terms of reference.
The emphasis on risk management and empowerment of young people as well as parents is a welcome addition to the debate, most of the previous literature I've read on the issue has focused on proving a point, or finding links between anti social behaviour and new technologies. I'm resisting the urge to flip to the section on recommendations to government before I read all the research, but what I gleaned from the introduction was that changes to the UK's current policies need to be focused largely on education rather than further restrictions.

[Yukimura]

What you say is true, I'm not addressing bad parents with these statements, only people who should know better. Today is not 20 years ago, today is not even ten years ago, look at how the world has changed in 7 years, since 9/11, look how the media has changed, the whole political/social/media machine is toxic to children. I'm running out of steam with this argument because I'm arguing with people from other countries, specifically the U.S.A, you guys have free speech, a wide variety of media to choose from, you and the Europeans are way ahead of us in many ways. Our free speech laws are open to interpretation, they're implied standards rather than guaranteed. Our media, apart from access to the internet is controlled by literally a handful of people, cable TV is controlled by one company, the digital infrastructure is owned by one private/public partnership, a large proportion of retail occurs on properties owned by two family companies. We now have only 55% of our media locally produced, this doesn't include local franchising of popular overseas shows(like Big Brother etc), how much TV content shown in the U.S.A is produced overseas? I'm not knocking American TV but it has little relevance to me or my children's situation and lifestyle, so therefore I view it as toxic, and avoid it. Your media creates more problems in other countries than you would probably realise, why should we have L.A style street gangs here? Where do the kids get the idea to behave that way?Why are our local programs thin copies of American style programs? Why is American music more popular than Australian music?
Foreign culture is forced upon us, its not forced upon the U.S.A, when your culture is given second place below someone else's then you'll get the picture. We are not the same as you guys, we have our own history and customs which are rapidly being eroded by your foreign influence, and you'd find that opinion in most countries worldwide. Can you understand my siege mentality?, its the kind of frustration that can lead to anti American feeling,not in me I'm a great admirer of the U.S.A, but in other less educated peoples . We have to fight our governments on these matters because they are, infiltrated, for want of a better term , by overseas corporate interests and home grown special interest groups. We've just changed governments and the new people are heading more in the right direction..hope springs eternal.:) I really do enjoy these exchanges they help me refine my hypotheses, they are very stimulating to a work in progress.


A note on The Byron Review: Print it out at work LOL:D, although I did manage to trim 30 pages off by excluding the bibliography, the introduction and all the drawings its still a weighty tome.

Aww, that makes more sense now. Thanks for the clarification.

[beemoh]

This thread has wandered somewhat from the point, lets get the crow bar out and lever it back on to the track. So who's reading the Review and what are your impressions?

I'm sort of in the middle. We were expecting an epic ****storm, but we got away with just having a handful of rabbit droppings thrown at us, and that's been reflected in the specialist media, who have perhaps allowed a sense of relief to take precedence and not challenged it as maybe they should have.

While the bulk of it is mere common sense, i feel that there are a lot of good ideas resulting in poor decisions- the idea of having one ratings board rather than two is a good idea, for instance, but she's picked the wrong one, in my opinion- and even then she's done it in a slightly half-arsed manner. Also, while calling for more parental responsibility is a good idea, fining retailers is not the way to do this - in fact, fining retailers is the polar opposite of promoting parental responsibility. It's also a bit short-sighted and ignorant of a number of the realities of the industry and the artform, but as the recommendations are intended to be rolled out over two years, I should imagine that those issues are to be thrashed out in the interim.

I'm mostly worried about the reaction it will recieve. Keith Vaz has already stood up in front of paliament claiming that the report says that games cause violence, which it doesn't, as a result, other MPs who have been pushing for greater censorship have been circling, and there is to be a debate on the matter next week. I have a feeling that additional legislation, going above and beyond that recommended by the report will be pitched and inevitably passed. ELSPA, the UK games industry body, has shown very little in the way of resistance or criticism not just within the realms of the Byron Review, but in all matters when games have been dragged before the government, meaning that if something does happen, it's going to stick.

TL;DR: We're worse off, but not by much.

[MUTANT SPUD]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2008/03/30/do3005.xml Am I the first one to post a hysterical journalistic over reaction article? By gosh I am. Great, commission a report costing god knows how much money then let people trample all over it. I hope Tanya Byron doesn't end up like David Kelly, she won't, but given the Labour government's record with this sort of thing who knows. If opinion on this matter swings against Gordon Brown I don't think he'd hesitate to sacrifice her to the media. I imagine theres a smear file all ready and waiting and if they can't get her they'll get some of the researchers whom she commissioned for the report. Commissioning a review and then using it to justify excessive and un- called for legislation is a pretty common political tactic, it also neutralises the issue, I can almost guarantee you that once the decisions are made we won't hear about gaming issues in the British Parliament again. I was hoping this report might pour oil on the waters and that some common sense might flow through to the debates on children and technology in other parts of the world, we'll see how things develop this week I guess. Be sure and keep us posted you English people:)

[MUTANT SPUD]

Oh and here's another response http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/technology/2008/03/byron_time_to_blame_the_parent.html
I don't know about his "filtering software" for his 9 year old, my filter for my 9 year old is a password protected browser that can't access any site that isn't bookmarked by me or my wife. If parents don't understand technology they shouldn't give it to their kids, and anyway, any halfwit can learn to use a computer in a few hours, most of the department stores near me include free lessons on how to drive your new computer if you need them and the Neigbourhood house scheme, senior citizens centres and local Libraries run free computer literacy classes.Not to mention that a responsible adult with even the most rudimentary IT skills is never more than an arms length away these days, My loony brother does that sort of stuff for free just to keep his hand in, in the hope of getting work in the industry. Maybe we do need to be selling computers with parental and filtering controls already set to "on", make it an opt out system rather than an opt in. Lazy b@stards.

[Ichi]

I haven't been posting in a while cause this thread went off track, but could someone update me on the Byron Report, I haven't had the time really read it yet and probably won't until the end of the week. I do not want to comment without actual knowledge, but I will agree that I was expecting an epic S&#* storm to come out of this, specially since Brown seemed ready to launch a crusade against video games, he must be pissed that byron stole his thunder

[beemoh]

I haven't been posting in a while cause this thread went off track, but could someone update me on the Byron Report, I haven't had the time really read it yet and probably won't until the end of the week. I do not want to comment without actual knowledge, but I will agree that I was expecting an epic S&#* storm to come out of this, specially since Brown seemed ready to launch a crusade against video games, he must be pissed that byron stole his thunder

The TL;DR edition is as follows:

* Byron could find no proof that games caused violence
* That said, she found none that said they didn't, either.
* The BBFC are having their powers extended to the 12 rating, which was previously voluntary.
* Tanya would like to see co-operation between PEGI and the BBFC.
* Ultimately, Tanya would like to emphasise parental responsibility. Aparrently fining retailers is the way to do this.
* There will still be an epic ****storm.

[Pominator]

I think this is a good thing in a way, the more parental proactivity the better in my book, as I recall ms Lawrence saying on Fox news: "you would have to pick up the box and take a look at the ratings, this means you would have to be ACTIVELY involved in what your child was doing!"

And she said it like a bad thing?

Someone explain please!

well I am glad someone on this side of the pond has got her act together.

[Conejo]

I think this is a good thing in a way, the more parental proactivity the better in my book, as I recall ms Lawrence saying on Fox news: "you would have to pick up the box and take a look at the ratings, this means you would have to be ACTIVELY involved in what your child was doing!"
And she said it like a bad thing?
Someone explain please!

the simple version: people are too damn lazy to raise their own children. doing so has become, in the eyes of the baby boomers, a chore that should be avoided at all costs.

younger parents, (Gen X, etc) have a far different mindset about technology and aren't as scared to know what their kids are doing.

[Ichi]

So when it comes to responsibility, she basically came up with the same conclusion that the game industry has been trying to tell parliament nut jobs like Vaz for months now?

On a serious note, while yes many parents are not as proactive as they should be, I do believe that the only way to lower the sale of mature games to minors is through the parents. When a kid gets drunk off of liquor in their parents liquor cabinet, no one blames the industry, they blame the parents for not paying attention or taking the necessary precautions. The same principle should apply to games, although I do think that retailers who sell to kids should be blamed as well.

[i.roll.20s]

So when it comes to responsibility, she basically came up with the same conclusion that the game industry has been trying to tell parliament nut jobs like Vaz for months now?

On a serious note, while yes many parents are not as proactive as they should be, I do believe that the only way to lower the sale of mature games to minors is through the parents. When a kid gets drunk off of liquor in their parents liquor cabinet, no one blames the industry, they blame the parents for not paying attention or taking the necessary precautions. The same principle should apply to games, although I do think that retailers who sell to kids should be blamed as well.

Unfortunately, that analogy sort of falls apart when one considers that alcoholic beverages actually are regulated by the government. Video games are not, and hopefully it will stay that way.

[MUTANT SPUD]

the simple version: people are too damn lazy to raise their own children. doing so has become, in the eyes of the baby boomers, a chore that should be avoided at all costs.

younger parents, (Gen X, etc) have a far different mindset about technology and aren't as scared to know what their kids are doing. I think you might be right, I watched this \http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/kidsonline/view/main.html
documentary on TV last night. The generation entering adulthood now is the first to grow up with the internet and even they would have probably only been using it since they were ten or so. We'll see in a few years how the next generation of kids, ie my kids generation, handles life online given that parents my age are generally right at home with the net and technology generally. I got the internet when I was 31, the year our first child was born but I'd been using computers since I was 16, such as they were at that time, it must be harder for someone fifteen years older than me who had probably never used a computer before buying one for their kids.

[Ichi]

It's a total clashing of generations

[Pominator]

so... my kids will be some sort of computer geniuses all against a completely different medium of entertainment?

[KN]

so... my kids will be some sort of computer geniuses all against a completely different medium of entertainment?

No they'll all have pet sex slaves and we'll be super bitter cause we didn't and now we're all married.

[IanCharles@gmail.com]

The right (un)honourable Keith Vaz is calling for a debate on the report.

http://www.theyworkforyou.com/debate/?id=2008-03-27a.328.0

He gets it wrong as usual (as pointed out in the comments. Which he probably doesnt read.)

[beemoh]

I think I bought this up earlier in the thread, might be wrong- in the same discussion, however, two other MPs jump on the bandwagon, one proposing enforcing censorship on arcades, too.

[Twin-Skies]

It's not as bad as it sounds (Sensationalist headlines, Meh)

Tanya Byron links games to heroin addiction (http://www.mcvuk.com/news/30206/Tanya-Byron-TV-show-links-games-to-heroin-addiction)


Dr Tanya Byron may have became a ‘friend’ of the industry when conducting her six-month Government Review – but a new BBC TV show written and fronted by the child psychologist is unlikely to have been well received by the UK games business.

Am I Normal?, screened at 9pm on BBC 2 last night, investigated the subject of video games addiction – even going so far as comparing an 'obsession' with interactive entertainment with a reliance on cocaine or heroin.

Byron introduced the section on games addiction by narrating:

“Most of us think of games as the preserve of the teenager; young people escaping into a virtual world of fantasy. It’s an attractive but artificial world where they can give themselves a new identity and a status and power unobtainable in reality.”

She spoke to World Of Warcraft ‘addict’ Michelle Hart, 39. Hart said she had been playing the game for two years and spends much of her non-working, non-sleeping life at her computer.

In one section that may make the industry particularly uncomfortable, Byron said:

“Michelle Hart is not what you would imagine as a dedicated gamer. She’s an intelligent, 39-year old woman with a decent job and no history of psychological problems.”

Byron later added:

“It might seem ludicrous to compare a childish computer fantasy game with hard drug addiction. But addiction counsellors offering treatment to gamers argue that there are key similarities in the way that the consumer gets hooked into coming back for more.”

Byron spoke to counsellor Stephen Noel-Hill, who she revealed was “himself a recovering gambling addict” – and who had set up a recovery clinic in Amsterdam which welcomed ‘games addicts’.

Byron revealed that he “believed computer gaming has become an addiction every bit as pernicious as more conventional drugs”.

[beemoh]

http://forums.theeca.com/showthread.php?t=4465

[Ichi]

Normally i am not one to toot my own horn and I know I've tried to get my blog noticed before but I think this is an important post I just finished, its taken me about three weeks and I discovered a lot of things about the Byron Report in the process. I also got a couple professional opinions on the topic including:
Mike Hoechsmann
Doug Gentile
Tom Hansen, the editor of OpenEducation.net
David Walsh from the watchdog group SayYesToNo (not sure if he counts as a profeesional
Jason Townsend-Rogers- another person with a good blog who keeps very up to date on the game industry

I've got a lot of opinions in there and I even managed to find an oxymoron inconsistency in the report which could be why Vaz interpereted the report as an absolute for games being harmful

last time I try to get attention to my blog I swear!

[Soldat_Louis]

David Walsh from the watchdog group SayYesToNo (not sure if he counts as a professional

In fact, SayYesToNo is a campaign and a movement initiated by another watchdog group, well-known by GP readers : NIMF (National Institute of Media and the Family) (http://www.mediafamily.org/), whose director and founder is Dr. David Walsh, who IS a professional. Also note that Doug Gentile is member and research director (or something like that) for the NIMF.

last time I try to get attention to my blog I swear!

That's OK (at least, to me), but I have two suggestions for you :
1/ You should put a clickable link to your blog in your signature .
2/ Send a PM to Dennis about this post because there are a lot of professional's opinions, and it's quite important.

Also, congratulations for your blog, and for the time and energy you spend in "gamer activism".

[Ichi]

is his name on the forums just dennis?

or is there another adress I should send to?

Thanks a bunch for the feedback btw!

[Soldat_Louis]

is his name on the forums just dennis?

or is there another adress I should send to?

Thanks a bunch for the feedback btw!

Dennis' name on forum is simply "GamePolitics". Search this member, then send him a PM.

[beemoh]

is his name on the forums just dennis?

GamePolitics. I'll stick a link in the correspondents forum for you, too.

[Ichi]

thanks a bunch!