Sticky request, set the rules of "violation".

[ZippyDSMlee]

Since I noticed the (please, no illegal or copyright-violating stuff...) tag line to the board you need to set the rules now that you have made them(even if vaguely). What counts for illegal? Cracks are not illicit they fall under fair use "copy right violating" could mean a million things just using a CP'd image or sound in a mod can be a violation.

If you want to control what’s talked about fully in open then you need to set basic rules and not on the whims of the mods(as fair and godly as they are).It’s obvious whole games are "bad" but would a file or 2 to help someone with file corruption issues count as a violation? The way thigns are modified files like high res packs for games that are not normally moddable might be considered copyright infringement simply because of the zero tolerance of nature of it.

I do not wish to get the forum or GP in trouble for rambling over copy protection and console modding if rules need be set then set them already.


===============
and for uurr amusement
before word 07 and some proofing.
Since I noticed the (please, no illegal or copyright-violating stuff...) tag line to the board you need to set the rules now that you have made them, even if vaguely.

What counts for illegal? cracks are not illicit they fall under fair use "copy right violating" could mean a million things just using CP'd image or sound in a mod can be a violation.

If you want to control whats talked about fully in open then you need to set basic rules and not on the whims of the mods(as fair and gody as they are).

Its obvious whole games are "bad" modified files like high res packs for games that are not normally moddable might be considered copyright infringement simply because of the zero tolerance of nature of it.

I do not wish to get the forum or GP in trouble for rambling over copy protection and console moding if rules need be set then set them already.

[d.vel.oper]

Since I noticed the (please, no illegal or copyright-violating stuff...) tag line to the board you need to set the rules now that you have made them(even if vaguely). What counts for illegal? Cracks are not illicit they fall under fair use "copy right violating" could mean a million things just using a CP'd image or sound in a mod can be a violation.

If you want to control what’s talked about fully in open then you need to set basic rules and not on the whims of the mods(as fair and godly as they are).It’s obvious whole games are "bad" but would a file or 2 to help someone with file corruption issues count as a violation? The way thigns are modified files like high res packs for games that are not normally moddable might be considered copyright infringement simply because of the zero tolerance of nature of it.

I do not wish to get the forum or GP in trouble for rambling over copy protection and console modding if rules need be set then set them already.


===============
and for uurr amusement
before word 07 and some proofing.
Since I noticed the (please, no illegal or copyright-violating stuff...) tag line to the board you need to set the rules now that you have made them, even if vaguely.

What counts for illegal? cracks are not illicit they fall under fair use "copy right violating" could mean a million things just using CP'd image or sound in a mod can be a violation.

If you want to control whats talked about fully in open then you need to set basic rules and not on the whims of the mods(as fair and gody as they are).

Its obvious whole games are "bad" modified files like high res packs for games that are not normally moddable might be considered copyright infringement simply because of the zero tolerance of nature of it.

I do not wish to get the forum or GP in trouble for rambling over copy protection and console moding if rules need be set then set them already.


Yeah, and I do alot of hooking via code, which is basically manipulating the executable image in memory, that could kinda sorta violate DMCA depending on how draconian you want to be.

:\

P.S: haxftw

[ZippyDSMlee]

Yeah, and I do alot of hooking via code, which is basically manipulating the executable image in memory, that could kinda sorta violate DMCA depending on how draconian you want to be.

:\

P.S: haxftw

Well I believe the only real rule breaking here would be WAREZ and other illicit downloads, I mean I am gettign read to release the polish vocie files of the witcher on general torrent, its simple file swapping but that probably falls under a lot of bad things but the fools should have had the forthought to set the voice tracks at install.

And this is alittle worse than the high res packs for unmoddable games, at least from my pitiful understanding of it all.

[d.vel.oper]

Well I believe the only real rule breaking here would be WAREZ and other illicit downloads, I mean I am gettign read to release the polish vocie files of the witcher on general torrent, its simple file swapping but that probably falls under a lot of bad things but the fools should have had the forthought to set the voice tracks at install.

And this is alittle worse than the high res packs for unmoddable games, at least from my pitiful understanding of it all.

Well, Blizzard tried to say that modifying their executable in memory, EVEN WITHOUT CIRCUMVENTING ANY COPYPROTECTION, is illegal due to DMCA.

[ZippyDSMlee]

Well, Blizzard tried to say that modifying their executable in memory, EVEN WITHOUT CIRCUMVENTING ANY COPYPROTECTION, is illegal due to DMCA.

MMO's are diffrent dear ^^

[d.vel.oper]

MMO's are diffrent dear ^^

Bull****, executables are executables.

[steelcobra]

Bull****, executables are executables.

The reasoning is that is can change how you play, such as allowing you to cheat in battlegrounds, etc.

[d.vel.oper]

The reasoning is that is can change how you play, such as allowing you to cheat in battlegrounds, etc.

Heh, it's exploiting flaws (design or otherwise) in their server's code. The same way there are exploits for Windows, or any other software.

[ZippyDSMlee]

Heh, it's exploiting flaws (design or otherwise) in their server's code. The same way there are exploits for Windows, or any other software.

their server's code = their property
Sorry you lose try again ^^

"Offline" a game is "yours"
On the server you run for the game the game is "yours" as well, but paid MMO servers....not so much.

[d.vel.oper]

their server's code = their property
Sorry you lose try again ^^

"Offline" a game is "yours"
On the server you run for the game the game is "yours" as well, but paid MMO servers....not so much.

You don't modify the server, you modify the client. WHICH YOU OWN. BECAUSE YOU PAY FOR.

[ZippyDSMlee]

A.) Wrong thread. :P
B.) The executable file itself isn't modified, just the image of it in memory. You own the memory inside your computer, yet you can't modify it? The only thing I can see this violating is a EULA, and EULA's have inherent problems.
C.) Corporate developers rip off GPL code all the time, and in a few instances, there's documented (http://gpl-violations.org/) proof. So violating software licenses is only cool if you do it for your own gain. I see how it works now.





LOL
ZOMG zippys head is overloading LOL
For me the violation comes when you change the data to gain ground on the paid service, they are as always over stretching whats illicit and whats simply seeing how things work or making it better for all to enjoy (high res packs,user made patches ,ect,ect,ect).

But you must agree the rules of engagement change for paid service's, BWE a exe is all fine and well no matter how much they whine but once you cross the line of using it to change the game thats not on your own server a line is crossed.

[d.vel.oper]

LOL
ZOMG zippys head is overloading LOL
For me the violation comes when you change the data to gain ground on the paid service, they are as always over stretching whats illicit and whats simply seeing how things work or making it better for all to enjoy (high res packs,user made patches ,ect,ect,ect).

But you must agree the rules of engagement change for paid service's, BWE a exe is all fine and well no matter how much they whine but once you cross the line of using it to change the game thats not on your own server a line is crossed.

The server is not actually modified, unless you're overflowing a buffer to execute binary code or something. I'm not sure how to really explain it to you, but the client still generates messages, etc, that are sent the server. The problem is that in most networked games, programmers get lazy on the server, so they don't do any logical checks on the server end of the protocol, basically they 'blindly' trust that the client is sending 'clean' data. That's their fault. No law is being violated. Well, no REASONABLE law, anyways.

God forbid anybody in America be ****ing responsible for their own actions (or inaction in this case) any more.

Er, /rant.

[ZippyDSMlee]

The server is not actually modified, unless you're overflowing a buffer to execute binary code or something. I'm not sure how to really explain it to you, but the client still generates messages, etc, that are sent the server. The problem is that in most networked games, programmers get lazy on the server, so they don't do any logical checks on the server end of the protocol, basically they 'blindly' trust that the client is sending 'clean' data. That's their fault. No law is being violated. Well, no REASONABLE law, anyways.

God forbid anybody in America be ****ing responsible for their own actions (or inaction in this case) any more.

Er, /rant.

pretty much the media mafia wants to make all ripping illicit so people can not port their CDs to tape or digital format, really why dont they jsut sue sony for all the CDr's DVD blanksCD/DVD recorders and what not that would be the end of them quick :P.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

If you modify anything that impacts any of the data coming from/going to the server, you are effectively modifying the server. Even if all you are doing is making changes to the client program while it is in-memory. At some point, everything has to be sent to the server, for it to bear any relevance in a MMO like WoW.

[d.vel.oper]

If you modify anything that impacts any of the data coming from/going to the server, you are effectively modifying the server. Even if all you are doing is making changes to the client program while it is in-memory. At some point, everything has to be sent to the server, for it to bear any relevance in a MMO like WoW.

The data travels out via my ethernet card. I own the ethernet card. You can't claim ownership to data being streamed like that. It's not copyrighted.

[ZippyDSMlee]

The data travels out via my ethernet card. I own the ethernet card. You can't claim ownership to data being streamed like that. It's not copyrighted.

thats like saying its my cable line so I hook up the 400$ cable box to get all the channles for free, it dosent work like that, a MMO is a service not a a stand alone program you can hack offline for kicks.

For me you can paly with the data all you want as long as that data never touches their "service" :P, "they" are the trouble and can bring trouble after all theres no point in messing with a hornets nest unless you are a saddest ^_~ .

[d.vel.oper]

thats like saying its my cable line so I hook up the 400$ cable box to get all the channles for free, it dosent work like that, a MMO is a service not a a stand alone program you can hack offline for kicks.

For me you can paly with the data all you want as long as that data never touches their "service" :P, "they" are the trouble and can bring trouble after all theres no point in messing with a hornets nest unless you are a saddest ^_~ .

Unless you actually cause the company money, IT IS NOT BREAKING THE LAW. Will you get sued, probably? Will you go to jail, roflno.

[ZippyDSMlee]

Unless you actually cause the company money, IT IS NOT BREAKING THE LAW. Will you get sued, probably? Will you go to jail, roflno.

It doesn't matter using non designated code you are breaking the rules of the paid service, but the worst of it is merely suspension or you will have to sign up again :P.

[cjovalle]

Whether or not this type of action is copyright infringement, while relevent, isn't something that is likely to be decided in a court case under that type of analysis. Most of these types of actions are prohibited by the EULAs, which in most jurisdictions are enforceable, more or less depending on the law in your area.

If you are looking at copyright infringement, infringement can occur whether or not commercial activity takes place. All commercial activity really does (and commercial activity can include things that don't directly involve money) is change the type of infringement from civil to criminal.

A person can absolutely claim copyright on streaming media, if the content in the stream is fixed in some form.

As far as mods, the creation of a derivative work is one of the exclusive rights of the copyright holder, barring copyright exemptions.

But gamers tend to like companies that allow modding. ^_^

[d.vel.oper]

It doesn't matter using non designated code you are breaking the rules of the paid service, but the worst of it is merely suspension or you will have to sign up again :P.

Nothing illegal. Blah blah TOS.

[ZippyDSMlee]

Nothing illegal. Blah blah TOS.

pretty much ,worst they could do is take you to civil court and whine about damages.

DO you know your hacker laws? :P

[d.vel.oper]

pretty much ,worst they could do is take you to civil court and whine about damages.

DO you know your hacker laws? :P

There's only one: Don't get caught.

[Cigawoot]

Heh, it's exploiting flaws (design or otherwise) in their server's code. The same way there are exploits for Windows, or any other software.

With World of Warcraft certain things are left up to the client because it would take an extreme amount of processing power on the server's end to take care of this, and also cause a large amount of lag on the client's end. To solve this, they make the client responsible for keeping track of your position in the game world, along with many other things.

Keep in mind that the client software, as well as the server software, is property of Blizzard. You do not have the right to modify the client in an unauthorized fashion. Cheating destroys the game for people who wish to enjoy it the way it was designed to do so. To justify cheating in a MMO by saying since its you paid for the software (which you didn't you paid for an account to use the software with) that your entitled to do whatever the hell you want, at the expense of others who choose to enjoy the game in a legit manner.

Even though its not technically (in my opinion) against the DMCA to modify the client for non-circumvention intents (like cheating), its still morally wrong to cheat others out of their online experience so you can be the badass of the battleground. I'd love for it to be against the DMCA, as it would give Blizzard the legal ability to shut down people who hack their game to make money (like Gold Farmers).

That is all,
Cigawoot

[ZippyDSMlee]

With World of Warcraft certain things are left up to the client because it would take an extreme amount of processing power on the server's end to take care of this, and also cause a large amount of lag on the client's end. To solve this, they make the client responsible for keeping track of your position in the game world, along with many other things.

Keep in mind that the client software, as well as the server software, is property of Blizzard. You do not have the right to modify the client in an unauthorized fashion. Cheating destroys the game for people who wish to enjoy it the way it was designed to do so. To justify cheating in a MMO by saying since its you paid for the software (which you didn't you paid for an account to use the software with) that your entitled to do whatever the hell you want, at the expense of others who choose to enjoy the game in a legit manner.

Even though its not technically (in my opinion) against the DMCA to modify the client for non-circumvention intents (like cheating), its still morally wrong to cheat others out of their online experience so you can be the badass of the battleground. I'd love for it to be against the DMCA, as it would give Blizzard the legal ability to shut down people who hack their game to make money (like Gold Farmers).

That is all,
Cigawoot

But you must admit there is a huge diffrance in dcking with code and cheating, one is not exclusive to the other, this is something MS has gotten all kinds of stupid over and blocked cheat devices o the Xbox console brand, when a 2 or 3(no user made cheats, or at the least approved user made cheats, all cheats are passed through a sever in order to function and 95% of cheats would be SP based,bricking,blocking downing accounts and consoles that hack which they already do ) step measure to ensure network safety would have been a lot better..

[Cigawoot]

But you must admit there is a huge diffrance in dcking with code and cheating, one is not exclusive to the other, this is something MS has gotten all kinds of stupid over and blocked cheat devices o the Xbox console brand, when a 2 or 3(no user made cheats, or at the least approved user made cheats, all cheats are passed through a sever in order to function and 95% of cheats would be SP based,bricking,blocking downing accounts and consoles that hack which they already do ) step measure to ensure network safety would have been a lot better..

Ensuring client security is part of ensuring server security. Alot of stuff can be stopped at the client level.

For example, Warden is a client side method (albeit controversial) of stopping cheaters in WoW. The issue is that Warden can't tell the difference between a cosmetic hack that changes the look of something, and a hack that gives a player a significant advantage. Map replacement hacks were used a long time ago allow players to skip content in raid dungeons, giving them a PvE advantage over others who cleared the content normally. In the long run, Blizzard did ban most of these people, but it took a while.

By enforcing client security, you add a layer to a "security blanket" that includes both client and server security. There are some things that can't be detected on the server's end, like the use of a bot. From my experience as an admin on a UT2004 and CS:S server, the only reliable way to detect a aimbot or other kinds of cheaters is to use a combination of client side security protocols (like AntiTCC) and human observation of suspected cheaters.

Now, thinking about it, Blizzard could claim financial harm from someone cheating inside their game. One, they have to close the account due to TOS violations, thats less revenue for them (unless they purchase a new account), secondly there is loss of revenue when someone else quits because of cheating. This is why Blizzard is so aggressive when it comes to cheaters, they don't their customers to leave because of a few bad eggs.

[ZippyDSMlee]

Ensuring client security is part of ensuring server security. Alot of stuff can be stopped at the client level.

For example, Warden is a client side method (albeit controversial) of stopping cheaters in WoW. The issue is that Warden can't tell the difference between a cosmetic hack that changes the look of something, and a hack that gives a player a significant advantage. Map replacement hacks were used a long time ago allow players to skip content in raid dungeons, giving them a PvE advantage over others who cleared the content normally. In the long run, Blizzard did ban most of these people, but it took a while.

By enforcing client security, you add a layer to a "security blanket" that includes both client and server security. There are some things that can't be detected on the server's end, like the use of a bot. From my experience as an admin on a UT2004 and CS:S server, the only reliable way to detect a aimbot or other kinds of cheaters is to use a combination of client side security protocols (like AntiTCC) and human observation of suspected cheaters.

Now, thinking about it, Blizzard could claim financial harm from someone cheating inside their game. One, they have to close the account due to TOS violations, thats less revenue for them (unless they purchase a new account), secondly there is loss of revenue when someone else quits because of cheating. This is why Blizzard is so aggressive when it comes to cheaters, they don't their customers to leave because of a few bad eggs.

Well if such things were playable MS would have sued all the modders on live, they do go after groups ad thats good enough for the most part.

As for hacking WOW you can setup your own sever and hack to your hearts content IMO, when it comes to hacking on their servers or a client on their servers, that crosses the line mainly because with paid services you really own nothing, I would not be surprised if you read through steams fine print they try and say you won nothing and that any licenses purchased is temporary..

[Cigawoot]

Well if such things were playable MS would have sued all the modders on live, they do go after groups ad thats good enough for the most part.

As for hacking WOW you can setup your own sever and hack to your hearts content IMO, when it comes to hacking on their servers or a client on their servers, that crosses the line mainly because with paid services you really own nothing, I would not be surprised if you read through steams fine print they try and say you won nothing and that any licenses purchased is temporary..

Well, I've used a private server and I can tell you confidently that its not nearly the quality of just paying up 15 bucks and playing on an official server. Private servers are buggy, they crash alot, they contain only half the stuff, at best, of what you can get for your $15 a month. I only use my private server personally to screw around, such as looking in unreleased content, etc. I still pay my money to Blizzard, and I still spend a majority of my time on offical servers. Blizzard really isn't concered with private servers simply because their a poor substitution for the real deal.

Technically, Blizzard owns everything. You do not have a legal right to any digital property procured in WoW. This mainly gives Blizzard the legal basis to go after those who sell ingame property if they choose to. Even though no real legal precedent has been set in regards to who actually owns digital property, and what legal rights someone who plays an MMO has, I'm pretty sure according to the Terms of Service and End User License Agreement that MMOs carry that a judge would find in favor of the company who runs the MMO. It would be an interesting court case though.