Building a better ratings system

[ZippyDSMlee]

Ok so I ave been thinking...yes yes scary I know *yawn*

So I have worked out a simple descriptorless setup around the basic age markers

-------------

“G” learning and non violent
Early learning
Everyone Non violence (puzzle games and what have you)
—–
“PG” cartoon and fantasy type action games
Everyone (games like Zelda)
Everyone 10+ (games with a bit harder content like most 2D FF games)
—-
“PG13″ Games with mild blood and strong themes like Star wars
Teen 13+ No need for change
Teen 16+: knock 17 down to 16 then split the diffrance overly violent and sexy go to 18 the rest go to 16+
—–
Games not for kids,because of the distaste the US has for “sex” it needs to be split into 2 category’s so that no game on violance alone can be rated “AO”

Mature 18+:Games that are to gory or strong for “17″
Adults Only:games that have sex and nudity based around sex in them.

--------------------

Most M for mature games will become T for 16+
SUdeki T16+
GOW=T16+
HL2 =16+
Qauke 4 =16+



Games that have a strong enough content to go one level higher
Vampire TM:BLoodlines= M18+


Mmmmmm I am starting to doubt that 17 can be split so easily because some will complain about 16 begin to "young" and thos that complain they cant sell their games to 17 year olds,thoughts comments always welcome and yes I know it wont happen but the ESRB is changing and tweaking their ratings so in 3 years tiem they might break down and have 3 tiers for all age groups.

[KN]

Game ratings should only go up to about 16. The only games warrenting anything higher aren't actually sold, and rating them is completely useless.

[ZippyDSMlee]

Game ratings should only go up to about 16. The only games warrenting anything higher aren't actually sold, and rating them is completely useless.

you forget porn even 18 year olds are bared from seeing it in half of the states :P

[KN]

you forget porn even 18 year olds are bared from seeing it in half of the states :P

Yeah. When's the last time you've seen a GOOD porn game that is sold in a store?

Rating those things doesn't even begin to make sense. People download these things, not buy them.

[ZippyDSMlee]

Yeah. When's the last time you've seen a GOOD porn game that is sold in a store?

Rating those things doesn't even begin to make sense. People download these things, not buy them.

really now so no one imports Heanti games from japan *L*

the whole point of a M18 and AO is MA18 is maxed violence and should not be hidden from view,AO will be more tricky to handle but can be handled in retail chains that can deal with it as well as mail order and online distro just because it skips retail dosnet mean it should not be rated.

[Beacon]

You can't use "G", "PG", and "PG-13". The MPAA has copyright to those and wouldn't let the ESRB use them.

[Kharne]

Everyone 10+ (games with a bit harder content like most 2D FF games)

Wait, shouldn't we be sorting games by content instaid of difficulty? Or am I misreading that?

Also, are discriptorless ratings a good idea? I mean, movie and tv rating systems use them. So why go against the trend if the whole point is to be treated equally to them?

Finally, what exactly are you doing? It looks like you've made a number of main ratings that each break down into a series of sub-ratings, but I can't be sure of that because you sort of jumped right to the ratings without explaning what you did or how this is set up. Namely, I don't know how G, PG and PG-13 are used because their in your system but the examples don't seem to use them.

[ZippyDSMlee]

Kharne
discriptors lead to more confusetion tis best to break them up useing violence/gore as the marker for level change.

Content and level of violence is what the games are rated on.


Seasem Street:Learning with elmo =EL
Colums,chess,checkerscard game puzzle pack=E

Okami=E6+
Zelda=E6+

Finial Fantasy 6 remake GBA= e10+

God Of War=T16+


Vampire TM:BLoodlines= M18+

AO:happy hentais hentai game of the month

Beacon
Yes but it dosent mean a like system can not be made based around the age groupings that it and half the world uses.

[Kharne]

Seasem Street:Learning with elmo =EL
Colums,chess,checkerscard game puzzle pack=E

Okami=E6+
Zelda=E6+

Finial Fantasy 6 remake GBA= e10+

Wait wait wait. E6+? We had Early Learning, Everyone Non Violent, Everyone and Everyone 10+.

That implies ratings of EL, ENV, E and E10+ respectively Where'd the E6+ come from? I'm deducing that E is actually EVN, which is bad because there's nothing about Eeveryone that says it should be E6+. Espically since shortening Early Learning to EL implies it should be E and Everyone Non-Violent be ENV.

And you didn't answer: where to G, PG, and PG13 fit into this? If those aren't actual ratings you shouldn't include them in your discription because it makes it look like there's more ratings that what's actually used.

[ZippyDSMlee]

Wait wait wait. E6+? We had Early Learning, Everyone Non Violent, Everyone and Everyone 10+.

That implies ratings of EL, ENV, E and E10+ respectively Where'd the E6+ come from? I'm deducing that E is actually EVN, which is bad because there's nothing about Eeveryone that says it should be E6+. Espically since shortening Early Learning to EL implies it should be E and Everyone Non-Violent be ENV.

And you didn't answer: where to G, PG, and PG13 fit into this? If those aren't actual ratings you shouldn't include them in your discription because it makes it look like there's more ratings that what's actually used.

Ok the ESRB has 3 levels of "E"
Early learning
E for thos around the age of 6 or 6+
E10+


The way I look at it you have 4 levels of "E" 2 for young kids and 2 for kids from the age of 6 to the age or 12

learning non violent and puzzle games pacman and games like it that have less "violence" than Zelda would fit into the ENV catagory,for E classed games with violence like Zelda would be E6+ .


I was useing the MPAA as a example
G would be non violent,PG violent,PG13 is PG13 R is 17+ NC17 is 18+

looking at the MPAA rating you see G and PG13 to R could use futher tweaking

that and useing the basic ESRB setup everything fell into place at 2 levels around each age group

At or below 6
6 to 10
13 to 16
18 and above

Since "porn" is tricky to deal with using AO for it is not a bad idea,that way some retail stores can deal with itas well as to have it for publishers that want to openly publish games of that sort,the reason why I am usieng 18 as the maker for M games is because a game like Postal could not go beyond 18+ unless it has over the top nudity or on screen sex/raping.

[Silver_Derstin]

Hey, Zippy... Okami is rated T for Teen, remember? Alcohol references and Suggestive themes and all the stuff that goes with it.

Suggestuve themes is the most stupid descriptor I have ever seen. All it means is "There are female characters in this game".

[ZippyDSMlee]

Hey, Zippy... Okami is rated T for Teen, remember? Alcohol references and Suggestive themes and all the stuff that goes with it.

Suggestuve themes is the most stupid descriptor I have ever seen. All it means is "There are female characters in this game".

ACK!! I missed that ><

wait...all the odd/drunk/gay and under age female characters in zelda should be labed M17 0-o *L*



ah well *yanws* I shall change it later mew *L*
before I fall asleep here do you thin the descriptors are pointless and lost on half the people they are trying to inform?
I mean 2-6 and 6-10 is hard enough for them to understand 0-o

[ZippyDSMlee]

Ok now the whole Mod content crap has got things more out of whack,while adding "Mods can change game content" like the internet content warning do we really need them tho ? I can see a good reason for the content will change on the net but do we really need mod warnings?

[kurisu7885]

Ok now the whole Mod content crap has got things more out of whack,while adding "Mods can change game content" like the internet content warning do we really need them tho ? I can see a good reason for the content will change on the net but do we really need mod warnings?

With people out there who don't understand the mod community, it may be helpful.

[ZippyDSMlee]

With people out there who don't understand the mod community, it may be helpful.

great so basacily 2 new add ons to my current rating plan

MOD=Content can change buy user

NET=Player will be hounded by raciest horny 13 year olds.



these are descriptors I hate 99% of descriptors,these are within reason...

[Sigma_7]

Ok now the whole Mod content crap has got things more out of whack,while adding "Mods can change game content" like the internet content warning do we really need them tho ? I can see a good reason for the content will change on the net but do we really need mod warnings?


Mod warnings are required - many years ago in Wolf 3D and Doom, most people who got the game did not know that it could even be modded. It took some time before you could learn about things such as the "Barney" mod, let alone know about tools to modify the game yourself. Remember that this game was in the age of Dial-up, where not everyone had instant access to everything on the web.

A simple disclaimer "Ratings do not include activity from other users or unofficial modifications made to the game" will suffice. It's much better than the current disclaimer "Gameplay experience may change with online play", since that implies that your copy of Doom 3 will become a CRPG once you connect to another computer.

[ZippyDSMlee]

*L*

meh needs to be shorter *L*

Short and simple

as stupid as
"Gameplay/CONTENT experience may change with online play",

sounds its short and significant enough for most to understand.

[MachShot]

"Game experience may change durring online play"

Translation?

"10 year old spoiled, pre-pubesent, suburbanites will cuss."

As for the rating system, I find no considerable problem. There is the occation where lanugage isn't picked up in the content listing, but every 'mature' game has recived a 'mature' rating. It's better than the MPAA. People don't question them because it was started by a politician. That is the last thing I want in my movie ratings... political biases.

[ZippyDSMlee]

True I mean if you word filter out type context you would not be able to read anyhting and you cant bleep words on the fly yet,I wodner how th 360's cam of spam is doing(yes 360 has webcam).... 0-o

I find the ESRBs ratings incomplete

but besides them Mod warning,Online warning is there anything else to keep things simple?

I find the descriptors pointless 80% of the time,am I the only one to think they do not help?

[Some Lazy Dr]

Other then the fact they should merge E and E10, I don't really care. The rating system is adequate.

[ZippyDSMlee]

Other then the fact they should merge E and E10, I don't really care. The rating system is adequate.

E and E10 are to separate its like G and PG one has a harder theme than the other one is for thos around 6 the other for thos around 10 its better than a gap between 6 and 13, however I'd like to see the gap between 13 and 17/18 dealt with.

4 levels for "kids" and 3 levels for "teens" and 1 for adult,the later of the teens begin 18+,if you take a look at some of the odd adult rules you cant be a part of a wet teeshirt contest if you are 18-20 but 21,this probably changes by region,so making AO games 21 or 22+ would be good for a nation wide standard ,18 would be for anything that has more violence than sex ,games like VMP-BL-TM would fit nicely in this if a SAW game was made would fit here,while things like GOW,RE,Grears of war,ect,ect could fit into the 16+ category.

BTW anyone knows how the PGIE online is going to review MMO games?
if they add the content the players bring...things are going to go to hell quickly for eu MMO's...

[weatherlight]

Looks like this post died a while ago, but I like the ideas. I would base the ratings, however on odd years.

3,5,7,9,11,13,15,17,21(18)
E would mostly fall under 3,5,7,9,11
T would fall under 11, 13, 15
M would fall under 13,15, 17
AO would be 21 or 18 depending on content/area

The problem is the system needs to be built independently from the current ESRB rating system. I personaly would like to see the money that is being wasted on game bills, be put to an entirely new system that could be enforced. The same rules would apply like in movie ratings all in the M or under catigory are put on normal store shelfs ID requird for all content 13+ and AO would have to be kept in the back room.

[ZippyDSMlee]

Looks like this post died a while ago, but I like the ideas. I would base the ratings, however on odd years.

3,5,7,9,11,13,15,17,21(18)
E would mostly fall under 3,5,7,9,11
T would fall under 11, 13, 15
M would fall under 13,15, 17
AO would be 21 or 18 depending on content/area

The problem is the system needs to be built independently from the current ESRB rating system. I personally would like to see the money that is being wasted on game bills, be put to an entirely new system that could be enforced. The same rules would apply like in movie ratings all in the M or under category are put on normal store shelfs ID requird for all content 13+ and AO would have to be kept in the back room.

We have more whiners and complainers than deep thinkers,I should know I whine and get whined at alot :P


the reason I like E to be in 2 categories is to help the anti violence nazis find non violent stuff E and E 6 and E10 make sense teen being broken into 2 also makes some sense one for games above 10 but below 16 and the other for 16-18 leaving AO "adult by region".

betting mature on 17 is a bad ieda becuse a few games will be so violent they wont fit

Now you could do
Everyone (non violent and puzzles)

Everyone 6+

Preteen 10+

Teen 13+

Mid Teen 16+ however

Mature 18+ (this gives OTT violent games a rateing and anythign else that cant fit into AO or Teen)

AO 19+ or by region

see if you can take the 2 kid and 2 teen aspect into your setup.
But the more I tool with it the more I cant escape the 2-3 levels around the 3 main age groupings.

[weatherlight]

I like the thinking part, but I would like to see more people get involved so that there is a chance to implement it. Unfortunately it is easier to whine then fix anything nowadays.

My ideas are far from complete on this subject; I will spend some time trying to refine the idea a little more. Since someone else is interested. The thing is it must be independent of the current ESRB system to work which is where all attempts are running into problems.

The list here showed is just a break down of where about the current titles should fall and possible subcategories. Work in progress.

[ZippyDSMlee]

I like the thinking part, but I would like to see more people get involved so that there is a chance to implement it. Unfortunately it is easier to whine then fix anything nowadays.

My ideas are far from complete on this subject; I will spend some time trying to refine the idea a little more. Since someone else is interested. The thing is it must be independent of the current ESRB system to work which is where all attempts are running into problems.

The list here showed is just a break down of where about the current titles should fall and possible subcategories. Work in progress.

I understand that but for a refrance and guide using current rating systems is not bad.


as I see it Kids need a 2 levels of violence/content and 1 non violent class thats 3 so far,you cant really not have 3 as I see it you could do it as 2 and have "teen" start lower at 10 but theres a wide diffrance in FF6 and Metroid prime both have weighted themes however MP is more "realistic" thus needs a higher rating so you really can't clump 10-16 or 10-14 so kids really needs that 3rd level ,teens is ok with 2 my reason for this is again violence 16+ needs to be the new mature,19+/By region can be the marker for games revolving solely around sexuality and nudity,meaning a game like Lusire suit larry:MCL the unedited could fit into Adult 18+ however if ti shows gentiala it automatically falls into 19+/R

brain storm

3-6 for learning gamers G Everyone
6-9 for growing gamers PG Everyone 6+
10-12 for kid gamers PG Everyone 10+
13-15 for teen gamers PG13 Teen
16-17 for mature gamers PG13 Teen
18-up for adult gamers R Mature
19-by for mature adult gamers NC17 AO


Brain storm 2
LEG-Learning/Entertainment Games=Puzzle/non violent=3+

GG-Growing Gamers=Cartoon Violence=6+

KGE-Kids,Games&Entertainment =Cartoon Violence,weighted themes=10+

TGE-Teens,Games&Entertainment=Violence,Lite sexual themes,Drugs=13+

MAGE-Mature Audience Games&Entertainment=Violence,Gore,sexual themes,Drugs=16+

AGE-Adult Gamer Entertainment=Heavy Violence/Gore/sexual themes/Drugs=18+

RRAGE-Regional Restricted Adult Games&Entertainment= Maxed out Sexual themes,Genitila,or sexual themes only=19/by region
-----------------

Brain storm 3 (smack me)
KAGE-Kid Audience Games&Entertainment =Cartoon Violence,weighted themes=10+

TAGE-Teen Audience Games&Entertainment=Violence,Lite sexual themes,Drugs=13+

ok I am dome ><

[weatherlight]

I like brainstorm #2, comes with cool acronyms. I would back a national law based on a rating system like that.

[Michael James Nock]

Some way of rewriting so "KAGE" would allow non-cartoon but non-closeup/graphic violence? (RTS'es in particular)

[ZippyDSMlee]

weatherlight
I dunno I like kage for kid gamers keep them in a KAGE!! LOL

Tage is not to bad perhaps I was thinking of a tazer cages how else to keep teens behaving :P

But I have come up with the basics I do feel the age groupings are far superior to any one else's even thos in some other countries where 16 would be 14 ,my system knows what its doing and understands there are 3 levels of teen class games
Young teen,Normal teen and older teen(newly adult)

Older teens are more often than not adult and thus can receive max violence but not max content porn is treated differently in different places across the world that gets its own by the region rule the age 19 is the best starting point for the US,leaving porn the last level on my system.

Now I could change things and add acouple optional levels for non US countries,I don't think it would be that needed because if a country is going to ban a game even a 19 by region for violence rating will not help it any,plus they could take the system I have made and swap 18+ and 19-R make 18+ for porn and put the Ultra violent games in 19-R doing this and removing a level thats not needed would adjust the system for anywhere in the world.

However as gaming ages and as countries realize that games are not for kids only anymore my system works best for all.




Some way of rewriting so "KAGE" would allow non-cartoon but non-closeup/graphic violence? (RTS'es in particular)

Not needed,the main reason for that is violence is violence and themes are themes,take star craft it would start as a 10+ because of the squishing on the battle field and the writing and the movies it fits into 10+ because the violence is lesser realistic the theme might propel it to 13+ tho

The older Dune STRs could fit in the 10+ category,you ask why is a 16bit low violence game 10+......................... theme would be the reply

Singing Force has true cartoon violence and themes of war and fighting I could see it fitting in 6+ however the theme is almost maxing out the 6+ level
Altho looking at Zelda and Shining force,SF has only a slightly darker theme akin to adult link in Zelda64

(Can someone confirm for me drunks in Zelda any zelda,they dont have to drinking the demon drink but fou drunks acting like anime drunks will do)


My point is a RTS is going to have the same level of themes any other game would it comes down to
Theme+violence=placement


Toss some games at me and let me place them within my ratings setup.

[Picho]

If we want to make a 'good' system, it will be divied into two groups.

Stupid games
Good Games

All good games will be banned.

All stupid games will force fed to gamers till we quit gaming.

[ZippyDSMlee]

If we want to make a 'good' system, it will be divied into two groups.

Stupid games
Good Games

All good games will be banned.

All stupid games will force fed to gamers till we quit gaming.

Down boy *noogies*
I will agree with you the stagnation devolution of fun in gaming hwever kep on topic *ULTRA NOOGIES*

[ZippyDSMlee]

trying to see if my system can take any game/movie

POTC E10 or T13(its rather cartoony but leans to 13+)

POTC2 13-15

Shirek 1-2 10-12

Harry potter 1-2 6-9
Harry potter 3 10-12

Harry potter 4 13-15

SAW 16-17

DOA any 16-17

MGS any 16-17

Mario Sunshine 6-9

Zelda WW 6-9


Postal 2 18+

God of war 1-2 16-17 (it dose lean 18+)

Mmmmmmmmmmm perhaps I should start rounding up/down the themes *L*

[ZippyDSMlee]

OK I would like some more thoughts and comments into this thread

We have a some what great age grouping now lets see what we can do with descriptors pulled from wiki
-----------------------------------------
Current

* Alcohol Reference — Reference to and/or images of alcoholic beverages.
* Animated Blood — Discolored and/or unrealistic depictions of blood.
* Blood — Depictions of blood.
* Blood and Gore — Depictions of blood or the mutilation of body parts.
* Cartoon Violence — Violent actions involving cartoon-like or animated situations and characters. May also include violence where a character is unharmed after the action has been inflicted.
* Comic Mischief — Depictions or dialogue involving slapstick or suggestive humor.
* Crude Humor — Depictions or dialogue involving vulgar antics, including "bathroom humor".
* Drug Reference — Reference to and/or images of illegal drugs.
* Edutainment — Content of product provides user with specific skills development or reinforcement learning within an entertainment setting. Skill development is an integral part of product.
* Fantasy Violence — Violent actions of a fantasy nature, involving human or non-human characters in situations easily distinguishable from real life.
* Informational — Overall content of product contains data, facts, resource information, reference materials or instructional text.
* Intense Violence — Graphic and realistic-looking depictions of physical conflict. May involve extreme and/or realistic blood, gore, weapons, and depictions of human injury and death.
* Language — Mild to moderate use of profanity.
* Lyrics — Mild references to profanity, sexuality, violence, alcohol, or drug use in music.
* Mature Humor — Depictions or dialogue involving "adult" humor, including sexual references.
* Mild Violence — Mild scenes depicting characters in unsafe and/or violent situations.
* Nudity — Graphic or prolonged depictions of nudity.
* Partial Nudity — Brief and/or mild depictions of nudity.
* Real Gambling — Player can gamble, including betting or wagering real cash or currency.
* Sexual Themes — Mild to moderate sexual references and/or depictions. May include partial nudity.
* Sexual Violence — Depictions of rape or other sexual acts.
* Simulated Gambling — Player can gamble without betting or wagering real cash or currency.
* Some Adult Assistance May Be Needed — Intended for very young ages, used for games rated Early Childhood.
* Strong Language — Explicit and/or frequent use of profanity.
* Strong Lyrics — Explicit and/or frequent references to profanity, sex, violence, alcohol, or drug use in music.
* Strong Sexual Content — Graphic references to and/or depictions of sexual behavior, possibly including nudity.
* Suggestive Themes — Mild provocative references or materials.
* Tobacco Reference — Reference to and/or images of tobacco products.
* Use of Drugs — The consumption or use of illegal drugs.
* Use of Alcohol — The consumption of alcoholic beverages.
* Use of Tobacco — The consumption of tobacco products.
* Violence — Scenes involving aggressive conflict.

------------------------------------------

We can halve this ,most are unneeded.

[ZippyDSMlee]

when it comes down to it all you really need is these

Nudity
Partial or otherwise

Suggestive themes
dating or suggestions of dating or paring or "admiring"

Sexual themes
sex talk or lewd sex talking

Gore
Body parts and gallons of blood

Illegal drugs
you name it we use it

Legal drugs
Booze,pot,tobacco ect


Castlvina would score a M and dosent need much more than that M places it in adult range theres no need to tact on needless descriptors.

Saw the video game would score a M with a Gore


A game like Dragon Quest 8 witch have teen based humor and sexual themes scores a PG13 and at worst get a Suggestive themes.

I don't think you need more descriptors than that.

[Michael James Nock]

Pot isn't leagal in the UK and the USA, pretty big game markets.

[ZippyDSMlee]

Pot isn't leagal in the UK and the USA, pretty big game markets.

I left that in to see who still watched the thread sadly "its over 9000" it sems ;_;

[ZippyDSMlee]

the E-AO is about the min and max the descriptor can fall in if there was a game like the roger rabbit the movie and violence was 100% slapstick and it just so had nudity and sex it would be AO the same for a Magical Medieval lore hentai game version of god of war only you have rest stops in between the fighting to play with females and such,this is why theres a min/max by them.


================================================== ============

Violence
there really should be no violence descriptors they are pointless and only waste space because the the games main rating is based on it

Cartoon violence (E-AO)
generally is unrealistic or silly (zelda/mario ect,ect,ect)

Fantasy violence(T-AO)
From Zelda to LOTR ,magic, swords and stuff

Realistic violence(M-AO)
Graphic violence ( Fear,M&M Dark messiah,ect )

-------------------------
Blood/Gore

Blood(Teen-AO Class)
Use of blood spats to basic spurts

Gore(Teen to AO class)
Body parts and gallons of blood
(spurts+Star wars style limb lopping=teen)

------------------------
Drugs

Illegal drugs(Teen-AO class)
you name it we use it

Legal drugs(Teen-AO class)
Booze,tobacco ect

--------------------------------------
Sexual

Suggestive themes(T-AO class)
dating or suggestions of dating or paring or "admiring" or anything with females in it.

Sexual themes(M-AO Class)
Basic sex talk or lewd sex talking

Nudity(M-AO class)
Partial or otherwise

Sex Acts(AO+ class)
Take a guess...
================================
11 descriptors anyone think there needs to be more than that?

Remember Sex,violence(gore) and drugs are the 3 main "obscene" category's,gore is a extension of violence.

[ZippyDSMlee]

http://blog.scifi.com/tech/archives/2007/05/24/shift_the_troub.html

interesting read.

[MachShot]

On your ratings system, I agree with most parts. But unless the violence in games could easily be described by the ESRB as gruesome tourture (which I would hate to even bother with a game that would have that as a game option) I don't thing violence should go in the AO range.

Any teen can comprehend the idea of drugs easily. I don't thing that drug reference should ever contribute to what makes a game AO.

I only question the use of AO because stores, while they may openly sell un-rated movies, they never display or advertise AO games.




Now, on your sexual themes section, this is where I really ponder your ideas.

Dating, M? Really? Dating is not sexualy suggestive at all. Is marriage AO as well then? Dating should be E for everyone.

Sex talk, if it doesn't have very descriptive sex act terms of use of words like f***. Sex talk, or the better term, mature flirting should be T.

That's just what I belive.

[ZippyDSMlee]

On your ratings system, I agree with most parts. But unless the violence in games could easily be described by the ESRB as gruesome tourture (which I would hate to even bother with a game that would have that as a game option) I don't thing violence should go in the AO range.

Any teen can comprehend the idea of drugs easily. I don't thing that drug reference should ever contribute to what makes a game AO.

I only question the use of AO because stores, while they may openly sell un-rated movies, they never display or advertise AO games.




Now, on your sexual themes section, this is where I really ponder your ideas.

Dating, M? Really? Dating is not sexualy suggestive at all. Is marriage AO as well then? Dating should be E for everyone.

Sex talk, if it doesn't have very descriptive sex act terms of use of words like f***. Sex talk, or the better term, mature flirting should be T.

That's just what I belive.

My bad I didn't put T-M on it I even over looked it 4 times :P
editing it now and cleaning some of it up.

EDITS
The drug descriptor is to give anal parents a warning not to buy this for their tweens,mainly thats the main reason for them because the anal retentive horde are the loudest.

Well Sexual themes is the descriptor for sexual talk ah mature flirting would fit here to, mild to moderate juvenile flirting would be in "Suggestive themes".


Perhaps I should state restate the T-AO thing if there was a game like the roger rabbit movie and violence was 100% slapstick and it just so had nudity and sex it would be AO the same for a Magical Medieval lore hentai game version of god of war only you have rest stops in between the fighting to play with females and such,this is why theres a min/max by them.

I guess one could do this combine Violence and gore

Lite violence (E-AO)
Cartoon like no blood

Violence(T-AO)
Basic blood spurts moderately detailed undead and such

Gory Violence(M-AO)
Guts and blood

BTW I see AO as a lost cause its pretty much a porn warning label.

BTW thanks for replyign and putting up with me bows =^^=

[MachShot]

Yeah, I noticed that a majority of the posts here are yours. I'd be glad to comment on whatever you put here. Now the ratings system makes sense. I was at first confused by the use of AO on everything but now I understend the reasoning.

[ZippyDSMlee]

Yeah, I noticed that a majority of the posts here are yours. I'd be glad to comment on whatever you put here. Now the ratings system makes sense. I was at first confused by the use of AO on everything but now I understend the reasoning.

Sorry again,my mind is ten steps in front of my leaving me to patch whatever it it concocts sometimes its post worthy sometimes its not ,its hard to tell after you get tired from all the "patching" :P

I might try to mch but idoits go where fools fear to treed..and soemtimes have enough sight beyond sight to get lost in the maze and survive and avoid traps while staring into the light or drooling on shiny things *L*

As I see it the ESRB needs to drop the fluff and stick with the basics, basic "offending class" descriptors as well as a full age range (learning,kids,older kids,young teens,old teens,young adults and adult) will be more than enough.

[ZippyDSMlee]

my post here
http://gamepolitics.com/2007/06/03/new-esrb-initiative-focuses-on-indie-retailers/


Looking at a few titles that should killable child charatcers and the apparent spike in the rating is what I am focused on as well as other nuances nudity is also a issues why cant we have basic R nudity in games is that so shocking and vile, I also wonder what grief Fallout would have gotten if it were made today as a detailed 3D game thus why I call M a lite R and in the current climate I worry even more.

the way I would "like" it is AO is left for porn and done 19 by the region under current porn laws( since its become it even thos its not supposed to), change M to to 16+(Mild teen) and have a MA18 for max violence and basic nudity,Mild teen will take games that are not PG13 but not R either and theres a lot of them while games like Vampire:TM:Bloodlines,GreasOW,Bioshock,Prey and the like can fall into MA18+.

Games need to be treated slightly different than movies ,the ESRB has done a good job on the kid tears but I find the adult tears to be lacking and it could be said teen is incomplete.

I see it as (dun ask I stare into the sun to much) falling around the age groups pre 6 learning,6 puzzle and non violent,6 cartoon violence,10+ mature kids themes,13+ teen themes,16+ mild/moderate teen themes,18+ Adult themes which includes basic nudity and maxed out violence and AO/porn done by the region based on porn laws.

Talking this out it would seem that prehaps a Teen 16 level would take the lesser titles from M and M could be left to be a real M..mmmmm

Games with a moderate amount of violence but no real gore and such could go there (Infernal comes to mind has no gore the banter is no worse than TV most of the time,Oblivion could possblie fit here a mid point between T and M could be more benificail than a new adult class...mmm )
====================================

Looking at it again it seems a new teen level 16+ might be just enough to relive stress from the M level altho taking into account the ESRB and the winds o'poli I dunno.... what do you think ?

[georox]

I'd say this: Adopt the movie rating system for video games, as in a complete copy for the most part, then tell the government to shove it up their ass unless they demand that movies get it changed too. Personally, most theaters card to get into R films, they should card to buy/rent games with excessive violence/nudity to, entertainment is equal.

[ZippyDSMlee]

I'd say this: Adopt the movie rating system for video games, as in a complete copy for the most part, then tell the government to shove it up their ass unless they demand that movies get it changed too. Personally, most theaters card to get into R films, they should card to buy/rent games with excessive violence/nudity to, entertainment is equal.

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm


E Learning and nonviolent G

E6,E10 cartoon class violence to mature kid themes PG

T violence and teen themes PG13

M violence and lightly sexual adult themes R

???? heavy violence and sexual adult themes NC17

AO porn X


the trouble is the Movies ratings are incomplete and both organizations are counter productive to each other and have their own interests,the MPAA wants the ESRB to fail and be in turmoil it will help the movie indutry.

you cant make them behave well with each other without the goverment stepping in altho it might help fix things if its done with some balance in mind.

[Scoops]

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm


E Learning and nonviolent G

E6,E10 cartoon class violence to mature kid themes PG

T violence and teen themes PG13

M violence and lightly sexual adult themes R

???? heavy violence and sexual adult themes NC17

AO porn X


the trouble is the Movies ratings are incomplete and both organizations are counter productive to each other and have their own interests,the MPAA wants the ESRB to fail and be in turmoil it will help the movie indutry.

you cant make them behave well with each other without the goverment stepping in altho it might help fix things if its done with some balance in mind.

Not to be overly insulting in my first post, but I think you've lost the plot on several levels. I highly doubt the MPAA has any interest in the ESRB failing, they simply want no part of having anything to do with game ratings.

In addition, there is no X rating anymore - NC-17 replaced it - and when there was one, it was only tangentially related to porn. You need to do some serious research into what the ratings mean/meant. X did not equal porn. NC-17 does not equal porn. AO does not equal porn. Also, E6 is not a rating. What you call E is EC (Early Childhood) and what you call E6 is E.

Honestly, in the GP comments, and here, you keep saying there need to be more classification levels, but I totally fail to see why. The entire idea of the ratings is to make it easy to figure out content from ratings. Having more ratings does not make it easier. Changing ratings every few years also makes things harder. Keeping up with societal changes is one thing, but outright altering your system is another. You keep saying the ratings don't work, but there is vast evidence in the form of surveys that indicates people are happy with both the MPAA and the ESRB.

Finally, you're equating the ratings incorrectly. The closest approximations of ESRB to MPAA ratings are as follows:

EC - the MPAA has no rating like this, since it applies to a very specific subset of educational games aimed only at very young gamers. The closest equivalent to an EC game is something like Sesame Street on TV.
E - G
E10+ - PG
T - PG-13
M - R
AO - NC-17

Seriously, the only way I'd change the ratings system at all is to get rid of AO and make M 18+. The NC-17/R distinction is fine for theatres, but utterly useless for home-viewed material. In addition, the idea that there is such a fine-grained deciding line as to what's appropriate for an 18 year old, but not a 17 year old borders on completely laughable. The best way for a ratings system to work is to have a very coarse breakdown and leave borderline discretion up to parents. That's why I think the ESRB is mostly successful. They give you a broad range (E or T, etc), coupled with content descriptors, so that you can choose what may or may not be appropriate in each case. The more you try to lock things into tight categories, the more times you're going to find something that completely messes up your system.

[ZippyDSMlee]

Not to be overly insulting in my first post, but I think you've lost the plot on several levels. I highly doubt the MPAA has any interest in the ESRB failing, they simply want no part of having anything to do with game ratings.

In addition, there is no X rating anymore - NC-17 replaced it - and when there was one, it was only tangentially related to porn. You need to do some serious research into what the ratings mean/meant. X did not equal porn. NC-17 does not equal porn. AO does not equal porn. Also, E6 is not a rating. What you call E is EC (Early Childhood) and what you call E6 is E.

Honestly, in the GP comments, and here, you keep saying there need to be more classification levels, but I totally fail to see why. The entire idea of the ratings is to make it easy to figure out content from ratings. Having more ratings does not make it easier. Changing ratings every few years also makes things harder. Keeping up with societal changes is one thing, but outright altering your system is another. You keep saying the ratings don't work, but there is vast evidence in the form of surveys that indicates people are happy with both the MPAA and the ESRB.

Finally, you're equating the ratings incorrectly. The closest approximations of ESRB to MPAA ratings are as follows:

EC - the MPAA has no rating like this, since it applies to a very specific subset of educational games aimed only at very young gamers. The closest equivalent to an EC game is something like Sesame Street on TV.
E - G
E10+ - PG
T - PC-13
M - R
AO - NC-17

Seriously, the only way I'd change the ratings system at all is to get rid of AO and make M 18+. The NC-17/R distinction is fine for theatres, but utterly useless for home-viewed material. In addition, the idea that there is such a fine-grained deciding line as to what's appropriate for an 18 year old, but not a 17 year old borders on completely laughable. The best way for a ratings system to work is to have a very coarse breakdown and leave borderline discretion up to parents. That's why I think the ESRB is mostly successful. They give you a broad range (E or T, etc), coupled with content descriptors, so that you can choose what may or may not be appropriate in each case. The more you try to lock things into tight categories, the more times you're going to find something that completely messes up your system.

Hey nothing wrong with me finding out I have more faults in the way I think :P

The inconsistencies need to be fleshed out and dealt with even if I do them on purpose or not(mostly not).

I suppose if my ideas are that far off the wall then what I am fustrated with the the current climate industry and poli thats stopping M from being a full R.

sadly in the US games based around nudity and sex need their own rating and I am fine leaving AO for that its already been tainted.

Also for a home market you need at least 2 tears per age level,in the kids level a learning tear is needed so thats 3 for kids(3-6,6+,10+) 2 for teens (13+,16+) and 2 for adult 18+ and "porn".

You also hahave to remember the Movie industry dose not scrutinize half as much as the ESRB has to I think the age levels I suggested are pretty damn perfect.

Also in this thread we or I are trying to hobble together a more prefect system thats streamlined and to the point..I tend to mix my thoughts to much....I know the ESRB is somewhat set in stone they "could" add a 16+ tear and then change M to 18 after a few years but at the same time I guess when the climate cools off M will evolve into a more solid rating but I fear by then it will be to late..

[Scoops]

Again, why do you need so many tiers?

You say the inconsistency needs to be fleshed out, but I guarantee you that all more tiers will get you is more inconsistency. What if a game has a little language and a little cartoony violence? What about no language and a lot of cartoony violence? What if it has a ton of language and very little realistic violence? How would Dead or Alive rate compared to Tekken or King of Fighters? Does DOA get a 16 just for having more bounce to the ounce? Is Tekken realistic enough for a 16, since it doesn't have the bounce, but is more realistic than DOA? King of Fighters is even more cartoony, but arguably just as suggestive as DOA.

Why do games with nudity and sex need separate areas? There are already games with nudity or sexual content that are rated M (Killer7, The Guy Game, God of War). There are games that are merely "suggestive" (Okami, Tomb Raider) that are rated T.

Even if I were to grant you every other age level (and I don't), what exactly is the point of an 18+ rating and a "porn" rating? You have to be 18 to buy the 18+ game, and you have to be 18 to buy porn.

Throughout this whole debate you keep throwing out pretty wild, unsubstantiated statements. I'd like to see you back them up.

"You also hahave to remember the Movie industry dose not scrutinize half as much as the ESRB has to"

Says who? You think if a sex scene slipped through into a PG film that parents wouldn't be all up in arms?

"sadly in the US games based around nudity and sex need their own rating and I am fine leaving AO for that its already been tainted."

Why? Movies based around nudity and sex don't need their own rating. If you submitted porn to the MPAA, you'd get an NC-17 rating. The fact that the porn industry doesn't submit movies to the MPAA has no bearing on that.

"Also in this thread we or I are trying to hobble together a more prefect system thats streamlined and to the point"

Here you go:
L - Learning games for small children
E - Games for everyone (6+)
T - Games for teenagers (13+)
A - Games for adults (18+)

Descriptors:
Drugs, alcohol or tobacco
Mature, suggestive or sexual themes
Coarse language
Violence

Coupled with the rating, people can work it out for themselves in a 2 + 2 fashion. An E game with Violence tag is not as violent as a T game with Violence tag, etc.

You then let the parents decide what content they feel is fine for their child. If you think your 16 year old can handle the violence in a game for adults, fine and dandy. If not, great. That system is more streamlined and to the point. Adding more layers has never and will never be "streamlining".

[KN]

6+? Are you ****ting me? Should be 3+.

[Scoops]

6+? Are you ****ting me? Should be 3+.

The reason I picked 6+ isn't a content thing, it's a mechanics and understanding thing. Up to around 6, kids don't necessarily have the motor skills or patience and understanding that might be required for a general audience game (think Madden or even Mario Kart). It also lets parents know that L games are specifically targeted at youngsters, and that their 8 year old probably won't like the new Blues Clues game, since it will be far too simple for her. My L is a straight up replacement for the ESRB's current EC rating.

Also, mine aren't at all intended to be hard and fast rules. If you think your 4 year old can handle the complexity of Mario Kart, let 'em at it.

[ZippyDSMlee]

Excellent questions

Scoops;40943]Again, why do you need so many tiers?

You say the inconsistency needs to be fleshed out, but I guarantee you that all more tiers will get you is more inconsistency. What if a game has a little language and a little cartoony violence? What about no language and a lot of cartoony violence? What if it has a ton of language and very little realistic violence? How would Dead or Alive rate compared to Tekken or King of Fighters? Does DOA get a 16 just for having more bounce to the ounce? Is Tekken realistic enough for a 16, since it doesn't have the bounce, but is more realistic than DOA? King of Fighters is even more cartoony, but arguably just as suggestive as DOA.

DOA is has generally been M because of the bounce but its no worse than any other high level teen game I would put it in a 16 category because its not OTT enough to go into the 18+



Why do games with nudity and sex need separate areas? There are already games with nudity or sexual content that are rated M (Killer7, The Guy Game, God of War). There are games that are merely "suggestive" (Okami, Tomb Raider) that are rated T.

Even if I were to grant you every other age level (and I don't), what exactly is the point of an 18+ rating and a "porn" rating? You have to be 18 to buy the 18+ game, and you have to be 18 to buy porn.

Why? because this is the puritan US where sex is more frowned on than violence,GOW made it by the skin of its teeth if any other fiction game had bear breasts in it ,it would have gotten a AO.

You also forget the reason for the multi tears is to dump most of the descriptors and better advise parents , BTW care to toss games at me and see if I can place them within my system.



Throughout this whole debate you keep throwing out pretty wild, unsubstantiated statements. I'd like to see you back them up.

"You also hahave to remember the Movie industry dose not scrutinize half as much as the ESRB has to"

Says who? You think if a sex scene slipped through into a PG film that parents wouldn't be all up in arms?


Ya my statements are a bit OOT but also the ESRB is under political fire much more so than the MPAA and they have been under it for the past few years even when they started their focus was on content look at the MPAA look at a few titles that has bad ratings food of the gods (PG last and for a horror movie non the less, look at how some older kids movies would be turned into R rated movies now(Clock and dagger and others) the MPAA is luke warm and docent even have to regulate home sales they sure as hell do not keep kids from buying or seeing R films compared to the ESRB)

damn rambling +100% my point is the MPAA is lack because they can be, the ESRB has to double check and re double check becuse of the current fire games are under.


"sadly in the US games based around nudity and sex need their own rating and I am fine leaving AO for that its already been tainted."

Why? Movies based around nudity and sex don't need their own rating. If you submitted porn to the MPAA, you'd get an NC-17 rating. The fact that the porn industry doesn't submit movies to the MPAA has no bearing on that.

"Also in this thread we or I are trying to hobble together a more prefect system thats streamlined and to the point"

Again this is the US where sex is more hated than violence and protecting children from it trumps logic.

Here you go:
L - Learning games for small children
E - Games for everyone (6+)
T - Games for teenagers (13+)
A - Games for adults (18+)

Descriptors:
Drugs, alcohol or tobacco
Mature, suggestive or sexual themes
Coarse language
Violence

Coupled with the rating, people can work it out for themselves in a 2 + 2 fashion. An E game with Violence tag is not as violent as a T game with Violence tag, etc.

You then let the parents decide what content they feel is fine for their child. If you think your 16 year old can handle the violence in a game for adults, fine and dandy. If not, great. That system is more streamlined and to the point. Adding more layers has never and will never be "streamlining".

Nice but prehaps overly simplistic bear with my train of thoughts here, the reason why the age tears are important is because some parents and most polis are stupid creatures so you need a 2 for kids 2 teens and 2 for adults the other reason for 2 for adults is to label porn even tho they will most likely retail it their own way as porn dose at least it gives that option to any risk taking pubs.


If I missed anything please ask again my trains of thought tend to mix and get lost...then fall on me >>

[Scoops]

The DOA games are generally rated T, not M. Now, you say that there needs to be special consideration for sex, because that's the focus in the US, but also say that the sexual content in the DOA games isn't that bad and should only be 16+. This confuses me. Also, how would you compare Tekken, Virtua Fighter and King of Fighters with DOA? The first two are more realistic and less sexual and the last is probably less realistic an about as sexual. What about Mortal Komabat? After MK3, they're not even remotely realistic anymore. How would it rate? How would Brothers in Arms compare with Medal of Honor and Counter-Strike and Quake?

Can you back up that God of War only got M by the skin of its teeth? God of War II is more extreme in every way and also got M. I can't find any interviews with people involved in the game's development, marketing or rating that say anything about it. Also, for a country so up tight about sexual content, neither of those games had a peep of bad press for it. Killer7 only had Jack railing against it, and he got no coverage for it. The Guy Game only got coverage when it came out that one girl in it was under age. Playboy: The Mansion was roundly ignored, as was BMX XXX. These are all M-rated games with nudity or sex in them.

I'm also not forgetting that your reason for multiple tiers (and the word is spelled tiers in this context), I am rejecting it. You are vastly oversimplifying something that is actually horribly complex. On the one hand, there a re a myriad of possible content combinations that can play havoc with fine grained ratings, and on another you can point to the fact that people have wildly differing moral views and you need to find a happy medium for them. Having multiple tiers for small age ranges will decrease parental involvement, which I feel is the last thing you want.

Basically, I don't subscribe to you notion that we need to cater to people's stupidity. We need to fix their stupidity.

[ezacharyk]

Nice but prehaps overly simplistic bear with my train of thoughts here, the reason why the age tears are important is because some parents and most polis are stupid creatures so you need a 2 for kids 2 teens and 2 for adults the other reason for 2 for adults is to label porn even tho they will most likely retail it their own way as porn dose at least it gives that option to any risk taking pubs.


Okay, so what if you had a game that had extreme violence and extreme sexual content. Such a game would be called "Rape and Murder Simulator". This would deserve both of the adult ratings. Do you slap them both on the box then? Also what about a game that has extreme drug content? Where would that fall? You would have to make an all new rating for such a game.

I think the current Ratings system is very well defined and works very well. The reason behind the current age classification is to quickly give you the games age appropriateness. If you want to delve deeper into why it got the rating you can flip over the box. With the current ratings system if a game has extreme violence, it can get an AO rating. If it has extreme sexual content it can get and AO rating. If it has extreme drug related content it can get an AO rating. If it has all three or any combination of two it canget an AO rating. However you look at it, they get it right.

So I reject completely your rating system. The ESRB rating system does not rate the content, they rate the age appropriateness and give you a brief overview of the type of content in the game.

[ZippyDSMlee]

Scoops;41197]The DOA games are generally rated T, not M. Now, you say that there needs to be special consideration for sex, because that's the focus in the US, but also say that the sexual content in the DOA games isn't that bad and should only be 16+. This confuses me. Also, how would you compare Tekken, Virtua Fighter and King of Fighters with DOA? The first two are more realistic and less sexual and the last is probably less realistic an about as sexual. What about Mortal Komabat? After MK3, they're not even remotely realistic anymore. How would it rate? How would Brothers in Arms compare with Medal of Honor and Counter-Strike and Quake?

the last few DOA games have been M least the 360 ones...*double checking*
BTW thats what ratings systems do tell stupid parents what not for their kids and keep them from inflaming the mindless polis a mix of basic protection from the dumb and a solid to the point leveling system will be best for all.

let me check amazon for the DOA ratings, ya DOA WAS T and to me its still T its not rumble roses and such thats mindless sex,theres no reason for it to be M but tis a bit stronger than a 13 would fit perfectly in a older teen level.

Falls to gore+violence+sexualaity ,descriptors are not enough with a T to help guide the loud mouth horde that want to ban games being abel to pin it down to the high and low end of the are levels is a good way to sort them and then have the descriptors as extra glaring warnings to protect games from dumb people.

It also seems you do not understand the hatred for SEX in America the attack on games would be nowhere without the puritan horde.

Back to gore+violence+sexualaity, MK has enough violence to merit 16+,Tekken,Virtual Fighter,King of Fighters is mostly Teen level violence and sexuality I dropped out of fighting games after they all went 3D and non seemed as fun as the 2D counter parts but I do not think DOA4 has more violence than the past games I really dont see the reason to M it...mmmm


Can you back up that God of War only got M by the skin of its teeth? God of War II is more extreme in every way and also got M. I can't find any interviews with people involved in the game's development, marketing or rating that say anything about it. Also, for a country so up tight about sexual content, neither of those games had a peep of bad press for it. Killer7 only had Jack railing against it, and he got no coverage for it. The Guy Game only got coverage when it came out that one girl in it was under age. Playboy: The Mansion was roundly ignored, as was BMX XXX. These are all M-rated games with nudity or sex in them.

No I just know that it was let into Australia and Germany under historical merit,(in this case showing a Greek theme) if it where not for that it would have been baned, Also if its so easy to use nudity in games then why is there only 1 well known title?

BTW BMXXX (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMX_XXX) had nudity in order to be Controversial in order to sale because of that retailers drops it.

Playboy:TM has bare breasts thats about it,if you where able to do full nudes the sht would have hit the fan,also playboy is a a know adult magazine that keeps raunch to a minimum it has gained some respect due to that so a basic M class game is doable.

JT gets narrow vision and focuses on games that to him can gain him more headway in his fight against reality he has his own logic,GOW is such a impressive game in terms of "art" its a bad game to pick to rail against.


I'm also not forgetting that your reason for multiple tiers (and the word is spelled tiers in this context), I am rejecting it. You are vastly oversimplifying something that is actually horribly complex. On the one hand, there a re a myriad of possible content combinations that can play havoc with fine grained ratings, and on another you can point to the fact that people have wildly differing moral views and you need to find a happy medium for them. Having multiple tiers for small age ranges will decrease parental involvement, which I feel is the last thing you want.

Basically, I don't subscribe to you notion that we need to cater to people's stupidity. We need to fix their stupidity.


The reason I cling to multi tiers is to protect games from the loud mouth horde that want to ban them, there is a reason for the maddness as it were, the multi tier system has 2 functions to best age fit a title and to help protect games from the pruitain zombie soccer moms.

really its 1 more tier than the movie system and PEGI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PEGI) ESRB (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ESRB)


3-6
6-10
13-16
16-18
18+
18+ Pron
--------------------------------------------------------
ezacharyk
Okay, so what if you had a game that had extreme violence and extreme sexual content. Such a game would be called "Rape and Murder Simulator". This would deserve both of the adult ratings. Do you slap them both on the box then? Also what about a game that has extreme drug content? Where would that fall? You would have to make an all new rating for such a game.

thats simple it would AO therefore the violence would be "pornographic" :P

LOL
But really a AO or "pornclass" title has no limit on the violence within.


I think the current Ratings system is very well defined and works very well. The reason behind the current age classification is to quickly give you the games age appropriateness. If you want to delve deeper into why it got the rating you can flip over the box. With the current ratings system if a game has extreme violence, it can get an AO rating. If it has extreme sexual content it can get and AO rating. If it has extreme drug related content it can get an AO rating. If it has all three or any combination of two it canget an AO rating. However you look at it, they get it right.
My only trouble with that is AO has been classified as porn and discarded as it, how long did it take NC17 to to be able to be used with the current minimum of stigma it has?

Also when you look at some older titles mainly fallout if that was made today as a 3rd person RPG it would most likely gain the AO branding which it should not.
I might be confused between the ESRB willingness to correctly rate stuff ,the winds of the industry and the flames of polis ...that or I jut wear a tin hat and worry to much LOL


So I reject completely your rating system. The ESRB rating system does not rate the content, they rate the age appropriateness and give you a brief overview of the type of content in the game.

UUummmmmm the ESRB rates on content.....how else dose it know where to place a game?


rejection is part of life :P

So the ESRB is perfect and needs no change?
--------------
BTW all thanks for adding your comments! ^^

[ezacharyk]

UUummmmmm the ESRB rates on content.....how else dose it know where to place a game?


They do not rate the content. They rate the game's age appropriateness on the content, but not the content itself.


So the ESRB is perfect and needs no change?

I never said that. Nothing is perfect, but things can be good or the best there is. Your rating system is neither perfect nor is it better than the ESRB rating system. So until you can show me a flawless system that is easy to read and easy to accept I will stick with the ESRB ratings as they are easy to read and easy to accept.

Additionally, you did not address my concern about drug use and content. Care to elaborate on how you would address that?

[Scoops]

So despite the fact that there are all kinds of games with nudity and an M rating that have absolutely no uproar surrounding them, including two of the biggest selling games of the last few years, you still maintain that sex in games is such a big issue that it requires separate classification? You even pointed out that BMX XXX tried to use it to generate controversy and failed to do so. I realize that the US is more prudish on sex issues than virtually every other country in the western world, but you seem to be over-estimating the attitudes to an astounding degree. In fact, you spent a good portion of your last post writing off the sex and nudity in a bunch of games I named. How big an issue is it? There is absolutely no evidence, outside of the massive over-hyping and misunderstanding of Hot Coffee, that sex in games is an issue that is more important than violence. Stop beating the drum that sex is a big issue and AO games are considered porn unless you can support it with facts.

Citing Australia and Germany barely letting God of War in as proof that it's almost AO is, frankly, stupid. Both those countries are known to be far more sensitive to violence than the US. For example, let's look at the list of games banned in Germany (that don't contain Nazi references, which is a separate thing for them):

Mortal Kombat
Mortal Kombat II
Mortal Kombat 3
Manhunt

Based on that list, do you think sex was likely to be the issue they had with God of War - not the massive amounts of violence? If you look at their "unclassified/indexed (http://www.cybercafe-software.com/indexlist.html)" list (which unlike some countries is not a banned list), you will find that games in it are overwhelmingly violent games, not sexual ones. Australia, to be fair has banned a few games for sex, but have banned far more for violence. The upshot, though, is this: You can't use other countries as precedent in any meaningful way. Every country has their own issues with their own things.

Also, while I'm not a fan of the games, to say Rumble Roses is mindless sex says a lot to me about where you're coming from. It says to me that you're willing to write off games that you aren't personally a fan of. Looking at it objectively, there is nothing in that game worse than Kasumi and Hitomi in DOA or Mai Shiranui and Blue Mary is King of Fighters.

I can't believe you'd point to appeasing what you call the loud-mouthed horde as a positive for your system. They may be loud-mouthed, but they are both in the minority and losing. Appeasing them at this point is stupid. Most people are quite happy (http://www.esrb.org/about/awareness.jsp) with the ESRB's ratings. Even most politicians. The accuracy of the ratings is not a problem for most people. Enforcing ratings is where most Americans involved in the debate are coming from. You don't need to appeal to the lowest common denominator, and you shouldn't either. If you do, it will just keep getting lower.

The U.S. Federal Trade Commission (FTC) has also conducted research about the ESRB rating system. Among their most recent findings:


89% of parents are involved in the purchase or rental of a video game for their child
87% of parents are aware of ESRB ratings
73% use ratings "all," "nearly all" or "most of the time" when buying games
87% reported being "very" to "somewhat" satisfied with ESRB ratings
93% said ESRB ratings are "moderately" to "very easy" to understand


Source: Federal Trade Commission Report to Congress, "Marketing Violent Entertainment to Children," April 2007

That study seems to indicate that parents are quite informed and happy with the current system. They also don't seem to find it very challenging to understand. That would seem to indicate to me that your system would be equivalent to re-inventing the wheel at this point.

[ZippyDSMlee]

ezacharyk;41279]They do not rate the content. They rate the game's age appropriateness on the content, but not the content itself.


remove hyberlobe and spin plz thankx...


I never said that. Nothing is perfect, but things can be good or the best there is. Your rating system is neither perfect nor is it better than the ESRB rating system. So until you can show me a flawless system that is easy to read and easy to accept I will stick with the ESRB ratings as they are easy to read and easy to accept.

Additionally, you did not address my concern about drug use and content. Care to elaborate on how you would address that?

Depnds on the game and the detail of the content within ,lets replace booze with coffee in Wind waker or put normal adult alcohol use in it so almost ever town has a drunk or a bar that would place it in the E10 or T range kids drinking in a "cute" game would push it to T
(smoking is a non issue)

Zelda+the occasional drunk :it really shouldn't move it from E to 10 but it might.

Zelda+the occasional bar : 10+ (bads in kid games have happened befor it not a big deal as long as its handled right)

Zelda+ kids stealing and drinking some booze:T+

Again it depends on the way its handled look at bar scenes in FF 4,5 or 6 if they keep it simple (play with words and such) it wont get a automatic "upgrade".


illegal drugs use in story's will most likely be automatic teen depending on the "content" it can hit M fast.
=======================================
Scoops:
So despite the fact that there are all kinds of games with nudity and an M rating that have absolutely no uproar surrounding them, including two of the biggest selling games of the last few years, you still maintain that sex in games is such a big issue that it requires separate classification? You even pointed out that BMX XXX tried to use it to generate controversy and failed to do so. I realize that the US is more prudish on sex issues than virtually every other country in the western world, but you seem to be over-estimating the attitudes to an astounding degree. In fact, you spent a good portion of your last post writing off the sex and nudity in a bunch of games I named. How big an issue is it? There is absolutely no evidence, outside of the massive over-hyping and misunderstanding of Hot Coffee, that sex in games is an issue that is more important than violence. Stop beating the drum that sex is a big issue and AO games are considered porn unless you can support it with facts.

Citing Australia and Germany barely letting God of War in as proof that it's almost AO is, frankly, stupid. Both those countries are known to be far more sensitive to violence than the US. For example, let's look at the list of games banned in Germany (that don't contain Nazi references, which is a separate thing for them):
* Mortal Kombat
* Mortal Kombat II
* Mortal Kombat 3
* Manhunt

Based on that list, do you think sex was likely to be the issue they had with God of War - not the massive amounts of violence? If you look at their "unclassified/indexed (http://www.cybercafe-software.com/indexlist.html)" list (which unlike some countries is not a banned list), you will find that games in it are overwhelmingly violent games, not sexual ones. Australia, to be fair has banned a few games for sex, but have banned far more for violence. The upshot, though, is this: You can't use other countries as precedent in any meaningful way. Every country has their own issues with their own things.

Also, while I'm not a fan of the games, to say Rumble Roses is mindless sex says a lot to me about where you're coming from. It says to me that you're willing to write off games that you aren't personally a fan of. Looking at it objectively, there is nothing in that game worse than Kasumi and Hitomi in DOA or Mai Shiranui and Blue Mary is King of Fighters.

I can't believe you'd point to appeasing what you call the loud-mouthed horde as a positive for your system. They may be loud-mouthed, but they are both in the minority and losing. Appeasing them at this point is stupid. Most people are quite happy (http://www.esrb.org/about/awareness.jsp) with the ESRB's ratings. Even most politicians. The accuracy of the ratings is not a problem for most people. Enforcing ratings is where most Americans involved in the debate are coming from. You don't need to appeal to the lowest common denominator, and you shouldn't either. If you do, it will just keep getting lower.

do tell me more of nudity in games there are like 5 of them and thats my point.....

http://www.mobygames.com/game/god-of-war/trivia/triviaId,13881/
god I hate politics seems sony snubed the USK by not wanting to release it in Gr and they then accepted it

bah cant dig up anything for GOW,but GOW2 almost was almsot baned in Aus
http://www.atomicmpc.com.au/article.asp?SCID=&CIID=79222

It seems both systems are cracking hopefully they will have a real adult class of games to their ratings systems.


Rumble roses is based partially on mindless sex appeal and sueign it as a main part of the appeal of the game..or am I completely blind and limp? :P

Most wrestling games get a T rating ,add women in tight skimpy outfits and you hit the double stranded in the US but theres also more "bump and grind" in it compared to "normal" wrestling games,it also comes to cultural winds on how a things are "rated" male wrestling is nothing to blink at female wrestling only gets interesting when you bring in the stripper motif and that jacks the rating up to M more often than not and unlike most games of its type its dripping with sexuality as is DOA volly ball


I don't see any real diffrance in the new fighting games MK gets upgraded for gore but DOA 4 just has better built females that really shouldn't make it M because of it but one could say tis almost caught between the 2 if it had more sex or violence it would be a M no doubt.

LOL
Better guiding with the side effect of appeasement,and polis tend to not know what end is up but the ESRB is better than most systems I think it could do a bit better however now is a bad time to do anythign really I suppose and its up to the winds of change to push the spotlight off to another spacegoat.


BTW AO is as popular as X and that was changed so should AO or better yet devote a new rating to porn and push thos games into that bracket it might suck but thats the best way to to get AO to be used by pubs and retailers letting it rot on its won while everyone avoids it for a decade is not good for gaming.

and yes porn games needs its own slot because of the laws and prudes here.

[ezacharyk]

I meant "They rate the games appropriateness based on the content."

I don't think that is "hyberlobe and spin". If they were judging the content they would have kept the original game ratings system that had guages on sex, violence and language.

They currently review the game. Give it a age rating and reasons for it based on the content. If you want to consider that rating the content then that is fine. But they do take into consideration the theme and setting of the game and that has effects on how they take certain content into consideration when rating the game.

I still don't understand your reasoning behind 'porn games' having their own rating. Having two ratings for the exact same age group does seem redundant. Additionally, there is no confusion about AO being branded as porn. That is an opinion of yours. Granted there are a lot of games with strong sexual content and nudity, but there are many that have extreme violence and gambling.

If a game is only appropriate for adults no matter what the reason, then it should be AO.

[ZippyDSMlee]

I meant "They rate the games appropriateness based on the content."

I don't think that is "hyberlobe and spin". If they were judging the content they would have kept the original game ratings system that had guages on sex, violence and language.

They currently review the game. Give it a age rating and reasons for it based on the content. If you want to consider that rating the content then that is fine. But they do take into consideration the theme and setting of the game and that has effects on how they take certain content into consideration when rating the game.

I still don't understand your reasoning behind 'porn games' having their own rating. Having two ratings for the exact same age group does seem redundant. Additionally, there is no confusion about AO being branded as porn. That is an opinion of yours. Granted there are a lot of games with strong sexual content and nudity, but there are many that have extreme violence and gambling.

If a game is only appropriate for adults no matter what the reason, then it should be AO.

Porn is by law different from normal content to help these games be treated correctly in each region(were laws on porn are different).

it also helps remove the stigma on less sexual content under that same rating.


So you wind up with manhunt 3 begin AO and DOA EX knock off with nudity and sex being AO.
Because both fall under AO, AO is stigmatized 180% iif you remove sex from the equation it will lessen by 100% and allow mature games to grow abit further.

If a game with the theme and setting of VampireTM:Bloodlines can be made with nudity and not hit AO then prehaps I am worrying to much but I just do not see it happening,any game with a post modern dark setting with nudity will most likely wind up AO and I think thats a bit much because AO is stigmatized because it also includes sex.

edit
They rate the games appropriateness based on the content.
boils down to rating on content DOH!
sorry anyway you pad it comes down to them taking the content the pubs provide and rating it on the content there of.
Saying its based on the content they base it on is just spinning words.

[weatherlight]

Citing Australia and Germany barely letting God of War in as proof that it's almost AO is, frankly, stupid. Both those countries are known to be far more sensitive to violence than the US. For example, let's look at the list of games banned in Germany (that don't contain Nazi references, which is a separate thing for them):

Mortal Kombat
Mortal Kombat II
Mortal Kombat 3
Manhunt

Based on that list, do you think sex was likely to be the issue they had with God of War - not the massive amounts of violence? If you look at their "unclassified/indexed (http://www.cybercafe-software.com/indexlist.html)" list (which unlike some countries is not a banned list), you will find that games in it are overwhelmingly violent games, not sexual ones. Australia, to be fair has banned a few games for sex, but have banned far more for violence. The upshot, though, is this: You can't use other countries as precedent in any meaningful way. Every country has their own issues with their own things.


Well I am going to interject on this one. I was talking with my German counterparts and they said that there is no such ban on these game. This is merely a list of violent games that they do not feel children should be exposed to. If you decide to play them in public you can get in trouble for exposing a child to harmful material. For this reason most retailers will not sell them.
To solve this issue a number of game cafes restrict entry of people under 16 and the one I went to had two areas one where they put the younger people and web surfers, in the other they put the "mature" gamers.
Also, the games on this list are pretty easy to come by given one of my classmates has the newer Wolfenstein game.

Edit I also want to note that the list you provided states that only the "portable" versions of MK are banned, this is because here at least handhelds are reserved for children.

[ZippyDSMlee]

Well I am going to interject on this one. I was talking with my German counterparts and they said that there is no such ban on these game. This is merely a list of violent games that they do not feel children should be exposed to. If you decide to play them in public you can get in trouble for exposing a child to harmful material. For this reason most retailers will not sell them.
To solve this issue a number of game cafes restrict entry of people under 16 and the one I went to had two areas one where they put the younger people and web surfers, in the other they put the "mature" gamers.
Also, the games on this list are pretty easy to come by given one of my classmates has the newer Wolfenstein game.

Edit I also want to note that the list you provided states that only the "portable" versions of MK are banned, this is because here at least handhelds are reserved for children.

Didn't Germany has a not on list its baned thus unsablable/un importable rule or is that a unenforced law??
Its confusing when they have "laws/rules" they don't use...

[weatherlight]

Didn't Germany has a not on list its baned thus unsablable/un importable rule or is that a unenforced law??
Its confusing when they have "laws/rules" they don't use...
Thats how their ratings governing sales more or less work. If its not rated it cannot be sold in normal stores, but you can still buy them in store where minors cannot gain access. If you want the game there are "adult entertainment" stores that are often coupled with normal game/video stores where you can buy them. They dont carry a strong negitive stigma here as they do in the US, its common to see these places coupled with a family videostore.
There is also mail order, but most avoid this because there is a chance that you will have to go into customs, claim it and pay an additional import tax. Most just have a friend buy it for them and send it to them in a privet package.

The only real ban that was enforced was the games that involved "nazi's", but even those you can import yourself. They are pretty common to find among gamers, most picked up a copy from a friend or on a trip somewhere because no one likes the idea that they may have to go to the customs office to pick it up.

[ZippyDSMlee]

Thats how their ratings governing sales more or less work. If its not rated it cannot be sold in normal stores, but you can still buy them in store where minors cannot gain access. If you want the game there are "adult entertainment" stores that are often coupled with normal game/video stores where you can buy them. They dont carry a strong negitive stigma here as they do in the US, its common to see these places coupled with a family videostore.
There is also mail order, but most avoid this because there is a chance that you will have to go into customs, claim it and pay an additional import tax. Most just have a friend buy it for them and send it to them in a privet package.

The only real ban that was enforced was the games that involved "nazi's", but even those you can import yourself. They are pretty common to find among gamers, most picked up a copy from a friend or on a trip somewhere because no one likes the idea that they may have to go to the customs office to pick it up.


Interesting I wonder if its the same in Aus they have some odd tough laws and they can confiscate mail so I hear but if its unenforced letting adults have their "material" I guess it works.

I do not think anythign of the like can happen here altho porn is labeled as bad for minors and protected from them.

BTW do you understand why pron games should be separated from violent ones in the US, that having both under the same rating would only further stigmatize gore/violence thats only as hard as R movies or near the level of unrated DVDs.

Porn is kind of a lost cause in the US no nation wide system be it retail or ratings want much to do with it, on its own its been able to make a path for itself I do not see this changing for games in the US,who knows they might grow up and put games that have porn level content but the way the industry works its "ZOMG its AO its bannedddddddd" if retail wont touch it pubs wont touch it devs cant touch it, if they had a level that would take NC17 violence and medium R rated nudity games of this class would start trickling in at faster rate than just clumping it with the "sex" games and calling it a day.


I dunno somtimes my thoughts are jsut that....thoughts of the stupid :P

[Scoops]

Okay, I've had my laugh for this thread with you asking other people to drop the hyperbole. The irony there is lovely. Thanks.

Seriously though, I don't get this skewed view that there needs to be a separate porn thing. First off, there is no separate porn rating in any other media. More importantly, it seems like you're arguing that devs aren't making games with AO-level violence because they'll get treated like porn. Do you have any proof of this? To me, it seems like devs have very little problem putting as much violence into a game as they want, but they don't want an 18+ rating. Why? Because an 18+ rating lays too many restrictions on marketing and that, in turn, effects sales. Your 18+ but not porn rating would in no way whatsoever solve this problem. They restrict marketing of a game based on what its age-appropriateness is. An 18+ game would have the same restrictions as an 18+ porn game - they're both meant for 18+.

If retailers are so hell-bent on not selling porn, it's easy - don't sell games from MacDaddy Entertainment, just like how they don't sell Vivid Videos... Oops! That's how it already works. They don't sell the other AO games for the same reason theatres don't carry NC-17 movies - it's bad business. Carrying a movie or game that has absolutely no advertising and a limited market is just a bad business decision. This is also why movie studios generally try to avoid NC-17 ratings in the same way game devs try to avoid AO. They don't do it to avoid being associated with porn, they do it to not kill their chance at making money.

Rumble roses is based partially on mindless sex appeal and sueign it as a main part of the appeal of the game..or am I completely blind and limp?

And DOA isn't? You said DOA was only a teen game in your system, but RR is for adults.

As to your links on God of War, the Oz one reads as total speculation as to the reason it was almost banned. Certainly the report from the OFLC doesn't say whether sex or violence was the key. It's also worth noting that Oz has deemed this game, uncut, is okay for anyone over 15. So even if I buy the speculation that the sex game was the problem, Oz has still given that game a lower rating than the ESRB. The German link says it was denied classification by the USK. Did you read my linked list of other games that were similarly denied? They are almost entirely violent and not at all sexual games. Anyway, I'll come back to what I said earlier - what other countries rated, or almost rated, a game has no logical bearing on what rating the ESRB gives it. The gaming landscape is littered with instances of the ESRB, PEGI, BBFC, Oz OFLC, NZ OFLC, CERO, etc. disagreeing on a rating.

You also didn't address my question as to why you think the ESRB needs a massive overhaul in light of surveys showing that most parents understand, agree with and use the current system.

[Scoops]

So, for a laugh, I decided to break down the 23 AO games and examine the trends among them, particularly with regard to when they were released/rated:

Playboy: The Mansion - Private Party*, Dec 2006, PC Only
Lula 3D*, Apr 2006, PC Only
Farenheit: Indigo Prophecy Director's Cut, Sep 2005, PC Only
Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas, Sep 2004
Leisure Suit Larry: Magna Cum Laude - Uncut and Uncensored*, Oct 2004, PC Only
Singles: Flirt Up Your Life, Oct 2004, PC Only
Peak Entertainment Casinos, Sep 2003, PC Only
Critical Point*h, Mar 2002, PC Only
Tokimeki Checkin!*h, Nov 2001, PC Only
Water Closet: The Forbidden Chamber*h, Jul 2001, PC Only
Snow Drop*h, May 2001, PC Only
X-Change*h, Mar 2001, PC Only
Thrill Kill, never released
All Nude Nikki*m, 1998, PC Only
Body Language*m, Jan 1999, Interactive DVD
Riana Rouge*, Dec 1997, PC Only
WET - The Sexy Empire*, 1998, PC Only
All Nude Glamour*m, 1997, PC Only
All Nude Cyber*m, 1998, PC Only
Cyber Photographer*m, 97/98?, PC Only
The Joy of Sex*m, 1996, CD-i
Playboy Screensaver: The Women of Playboy*s, 1996?, Mac Only
Crystal Fantasy*m, 1996?, PC Only


Observations from that list:

18 of 23 can be defined as "sex games" (*)
7 of 23 can be defined as "mainstream games" (LSL and the Playboy Mansion expansion quite arguably cross over)
7 of 18 "sex games" are interactive movies (*m)
5 of 18 "sex games" are H-games (*h)
10 of 18 "sex games" come from MacDaddy Entertainment or Peach Princess - 5 of 7 interactive movies and 5 of 5 H-games.
1 of 18 "sex games" is a screen saver (*s)
1 of 18 "sex games" was a console release (Joy of Sex, CD-i, 1996) - arguably not a "sex game", as the Joy of Sex is a well known instructive manual
7 games rated AO after March 2002
3 of 7 rated AO after March 2002 are "sex games" (counting LSL and PM)
6 of 7 rated AO after March 2002 are "mainstream games" (also counting LSL and PM)

To me, to bolded points are key here. They say to me that the ESRB took the same gamble that the MPAA did with NC-17 - that the "sex game" industry wouldn't submit their games for rating as it wasn't worth the cost. Between 1996 and 1998, MacDaddy Entertainment decided to try it. They have since stopped submitting, though they still publish interactive movies for the PC/Mac without rating. From 2001 to early 2002, Peach Princess did likewise with a few H-games. They also no longer submit titles, but still release translated H-games. This would seem to indicate that the ESRB was correct - developers of strictly adult fare can't be bothered to submit their games, since even when they get rated, they get AO and can't sell their stuff anywhere but where they already were. Separating out the interactive movies and H-games is also significant, in my opinion. Those are two realms of "game" that existed prior to the ESRB and yet were never in danger of getting carried in mainstream stores.

Further, we can note that most AO games released in the last five years, while often containing sex scenes, are not "sex games". This would indicate that the rating has fallen in line with NC-17. You can even argue that LSL and PM, while containing a fair amount of sexual content aren't "sex games" in the traditional sense. It may also be worth noting that Lula 3D and Riana Rouge contain additional descriptors beyond sexual content. I won't argue that those additional things are what got them the AO, but it is worth noting that there is more than sex to object to in those games. I'm also not denying that nudity or sexual material plays a significant role in the AO ratings of the other games, but would like to point out that sexual content and pornography should be in no way used as interchangeable terms.

I really hope we can get off this AO equals porn thing now.

[ZippyDSMlee]

Okay, I've had my laugh for this thread with you asking other people to drop the hyperbole. The irony there is lovely. Thanks.

Seriously though, I don't get this skewed view that there needs to be a separate porn thing. First off, there is no separate porn rating in any other media. More importantly, it seems like you're arguing that devs aren't making games with AO-level violence because they'll get treated like porn. Do you have any proof of this? To me, it seems like devs have very little problem putting as much violence into a game as they want, but they don't want an 18+ rating. Why? Because an 18+ rating lays too many restrictions on marketing and that, in turn, effects sales. Your 18+ but not porn rating would in no way whatsoever solve this problem. They restrict marketing of a game based on what its age-appropriateness is. An 18+ game would have the same restrictions as an 18+ porn game - they're both meant for 18+.

If retailers are so hell-bent on not selling porn, it's easy - don't sell games from MacDaddy Entertainment, just like how they don't sell Vivid Videos... Oops! That's how it already works. They don't sell the other AO games for the same reason theatres don't carry NC-17 movies - it's bad business. Carrying a movie or game that has absolutely no advertising and a limited market is just a bad business decision. This is also why movie studios generally try to avoid NC-17 ratings in the same way game devs try to avoid AO. They don't do it to avoid being associated with porn, they do it to not kill their chance at making money.
Zippy rambling is not hypererlobe that takes IQ :P
Zippy rambling is "simi" coherent btching :P

Ah but would a 18+ rating be so hated if it was based on violence alone?

=Scoops;41507]So, for a laugh, I decided to break down the 23 AO games and examine the trends among them, particularly with regard to when they were released/rated:



Observations from that list:

18 of 23 can be defined as "sex games" (*)
7 of 23 can be defined as "mainstream games" (LSL and the Playboy Mansion expansion quite arguably cross over)
7 of 18 "sex games" are interactive movies (*m)
5 of 18 "sex games" are H-games (*h)
10 of 18 "sex games" come from MacDaddy Entertainment or Peach Princess - 5 of 7 interactive movies and 5 of 5 H-games.
1 of 18 "sex games" is a screen saver (*s)
1 of 18 "sex games" was a console release (Joy of Sex, CD-i, 1996) - arguably not a "sex game", as the Joy of Sex is a well known instructive manual
7 games rated AO after March 2002
3 of 7 rated AO after March 2002 are "sex games" (counting LSL and PM)
6 of 7 rated AO after March 2002 are "mainstream games" (also counting LSL and PM)

To me, to bolded points are key here. They say to me that the ESRB took the same gamble that the MPAA did with NC-17 - that the "sex game" industry wouldn't submit their games for rating as it wasn't worth the cost. Between 1996 and 1998, MacDaddy Entertainment decided to try it. They have since stopped submitting, though they still publish interactive movies for the PC/Mac without rating. From 2001 to early 2002, Peach Princess did likewise with a few H-games. They also no longer submit titles, but still release translated H-games. This would seem to indicate that the ESRB was correct - developers of strictly adult fare can't be bothered to submit their games, since even when they get rated, they get AO and can't sell their stuff anywhere but where they already were. Separating out the interactive movies and H-games is also significant, in my opinion. Those are two realms of "game" that existed prior to the ESRB and yet were never in danger of getting carried in mainstream stores.

Further, we can note that most AO games released in the last five years, while often containing sex scenes, are not "sex games". This would indicate that the rating has fallen in line with NC-17. You can even argue that LSL and PM, while containing a fair amount of sexual content aren't "sex games" in the traditional sense. It may also be worth noting that Lula 3D and Riana Rouge contain additional descriptors beyond sexual content. I won't argue that those additional things are what got them the AO, but it is worth noting that there is more than sex to object to in those games. I'm also not denying that nudity or sexual material plays a significant role in the AO ratings of the other games, but would like to point out that sexual content and pornography should be in no way used as interchangeable terms.

I really hope we can get off this AO equals porn thing now.[/QUOTE]

Wow well fckign said 0-o

This is the crux of my btch,porn is the the great hated thing violence less so this is why I suggest a change,so what you are telling me is that the ESRB is taking the long way around it like the whole NC17 thing did and games will use it in time say 5-10 years but it will wind up being used like movies use it the only trouble is movies can skip that issues on home release games can not thus it adds time to the whole issue I would rather go ahead and give devs a platform they can use rather than make the indutry wait,so I would still suggest it just to shave a few years off it,for some some strange reason this reasoning works in my mind...altho a lot of things "work" in my mind that do not function in reality :P.

I guess this is goign to be like the whole movie thing over time the industry will adapt to it as the populace "grows up".

[ZippyDSMlee]

OZ just let Bioshock in with a 15+ rating ,its still being work on for Germany,I guess the winds of change poli/social are the lube that keeps the rusty gears in each ratings systems moving,or am I being a idoit again not seeing the forest for the trees?

[MaskedPixelante]

going way back to the start of this thread, a comparison chart would be a good idea, so that parents can see the ESRB ratings compared to movie or TV ratings

[bayushisan]

A comparison chart would be a good idea. I'd be willing to support that, though which of the two other rating systems would we compare the ESRB one to?

[ZippyDSMlee]

I have sorted these the best I can,some are more odd than others plase commit so I can update it ^^
(edit:cleaned the chart a little,fixed link error and added red font)

Zippys comparison chart:v1.4
Note:red donates restricted by law.
I will expand this to New Zealand and Finland,I want to cover the basic nations and then the more restrictive ones.


MPAA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mpaa)..|ESRB (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/).|PEGI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pegi)..|BBFC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Board_of_Film_Classification).|SKU.. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unterhaltungssoftware_Selbstkontrolle)|OFLCA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_Film_and_Literature_Classification_(Aust ralia))
G........|EC.....|3+....|Uc......|WAR.|E.....|
..........|E.......|7+....|U.......|.......|G ....|
-------|-----|------|-------------|-----|
PG.......|E10+|........|PG......|6......|PG....|
..................|........|12A.....|.......|..... ...|
-------------|------|-------|-----|------|
PG-13...|T....|12+....|12.....|12.....|M......|
-------------|------|------ |-----|------|
R.........|M....|16+....|15......|16....|M15+.|
..................|18+....|18......|.......|R18+.. |
-------------|------|-------|-----|------|
NC-17...|AO..|.........|R18....|18.....|X18+|
================================================== ============
Descriptors
Pegi/BBFC

Bad language
Discrimination
Drugs
Fear
Violence
Gambling
And one for "Sex, nudity, erotica, pornography"


ESRB
* Alcohol Reference — Reference to and/or images of alcoholic beverages.
* Animated Blood — Discolored and/or unrealistic depictions of blood.
* Blood — Depictions of blood.
* Blood and Gore — Depictions of blood or the mutilation of body parts.
* Cartoon Violence — Violent actions involving cartoon-like or animated situations and characters. May also include violence where a character is unharmed after the action has been inflicted.
* Comic Mischief — Depictions or dialogue involving slapstick or suggestive humor.
* Crude Humor — Depictions or dialogue involving vulgar antics, including "bathroom humor".
* Drug Reference — Reference to and/or images of illegal drugs.
* Edutainment — Content of product provides user with specific skills development or reinforcement learning within an entertainment setting. Skill development is an integral part of product.
* Fantasy Violence — Violent actions of a fantasy nature, involving human or non-human characters in situations easily distinguishable from real life.
* Informational — Overall content of product contains data, facts, resource information, reference materials or instructional text.
* Intense Violence — Graphic and realistic-looking depictions of physical conflict. May involve extreme and/or realistic blood, gore, weapons, and depictions of human injury and death.
* Language — Mild to moderate use of profanity.
* Lyrics — Mild references to profanity, sexuality, violence, alcohol, or drug use in music.
* Mature Humor — Depictions or dialogue involving "adult" humor, including sexual references.
* Mild Violence — Mild scenes depicting characters in unsafe and/or violent situations.
* Nudity — Graphic or prolonged depictions of nudity.
* Partial Nudity — Brief and/or mild depictions of nudity.
* Real Gambling — Player can gamble, including betting or wagering real cash or currency.
* Sexual Themes — Mild to moderate sexual references and/or depictions. May include partial nudity.
* Sexual Violence — Depictions of rape or other sexual acts.
* Simulated Gambling — Player can gamble without betting or wagering real cash or currency.
* Some Adult Assistance May Be Needed — Intended for very young ages, used for games rated Early Childhood.
* Strong Language — Explicit and/or frequent use of profanity.
* Strong Lyrics — Explicit and/or frequent references to profanity, sex, violence, alcohol, or drug use in music.
* Strong Sexual Content — Graphic references to and/or depictions of sexual behavior, possibly including nudity.
* Suggestive Themes — Mild provocative references or materials.
* Tobacco Reference — Reference to and/or images of tobacco products.
* Use of Drugs — The consumption or use of illegal drugs.
* Use of Alcohol — The consumption of alcoholic beverages.
* Use of Tobacco — The consumption of tobacco products.
* Violence — Scenes involving aggressive conflict.
================================================== ==

Germany SKU ban rules (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unterhaltungssoftware_Selbstkontrolle#The_Index)
================================================== ==
Aus ban rules
Refused Classification (RC)

Films which are very high in impact and/or contain any type of violence in conjunction with real sexual intercourse are Refused Classification by the OFLC. The reasons why a film may be refused classification that:

* Depict, express or otherwise deals with matters of sex, drug misuse or addiction, crime, cruelty, violence or revolting or abhorrent phenomena in such a way that they offend against the standards of morality, decency and propriety generally accepted by reasonable adults to the extent that they should not be classified.

* Depict in a way that is likely to cause offense to a reasonable adult a minor who is, or who appears to be, under 16 (whether or not engaged in sexual activity).

* Promote, incite or instruct in matters of crime or violence.

Classification is mandatory, and movies that are refused classification by the OFLC are banned for sale, hire, public exhibition or importation into Australia. It is illegal to possess content that has been Refused Classification.
================================================== ======

[ZippyDSMlee]

M is not a defcto R its range is from PG13 to R face it the ESRB waffles a bit and now is rounding up to AO to protect whats left of its rep.

I this "opinion" over the action movies I have seen and the games I have seen,the MPAA dose not try so hard to round up ratings.

I'll even go further to say AO is not NC17 because a lot more theaters will show a NC17 movie now a days AO is more like X was.

I think AO needs a retooling and a rename in order for it to drop the stigma.

[Scoops]

M is not a defcto R its range is from PG13 to R face it the ESRB waffles a bit and now is rounding up to AO to protect whats left of its rep.
Many people accuse the MPAA of being selective in their ratings - see This Film is Not Yet Rated as an example. Until you play an uncut version of Manhunt 2, you can't accuse the ESRB of rounding up to protect it's rep. It's possible (and I would argue based on historical ratings, likely) that Manhunt 2 totally deserves an AO.

I this "opinion" over the action movies I have seen and the games I have seen,the MPAA dose not try so hard to round up ratings.
Yeah, (http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0088944/) big action movies (http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0181852/) never get an (http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0105698/) R rating. (http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0419706/) I don't believe that either the MPAA or the ESRB "round up" ratings. Things either cross a line or they don't. Don't forget, as time passes, that line moves around too. The line also doesn't move by the same amount, at the same time, in all media. By the by, I picked 5 movies in my head to check the rating of. Only Live Free and Die Hard was PG-13. The others, linked above, were all R. As a possible example of moving lines, the other three Die Hards were all R rated.

I'll even go further to say AO is not NC17 because a lot more theaters will show a NC17 movie now a days AO is more like X was.
Horsepuckies. I can't find any source that reports this. Please cite a source that says more (a higher percentage of) theatres are showing NC-17 movies now than used to show X or NC-17 back in the day. Movies cut down to R do not count. Those are R rated movies when they are shown, just like the Punisher was an M rated game when it was sold.

[ZippyDSMlee]

Many people accuse the MPAA of being selective in their ratings - see This Film is Not Yet Rated as an example. Until you play an uncut version of Manhunt 2, you can't accuse the ESRB of rounding up to protect it's rep. It's possible (and I would argue based on historical ratings, likely) that Manhunt 2 totally deserves an AO.


Yeah, (http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0088944/) big action movies (http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0181852/) never get an (http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0105698/) R rating. (http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0419706/) I don't believe that either the MPAA or the ESRB "round up" ratings. Things either cross a line or they don't. Don't forget, as time passes, that line moves around too. The line also doesn't move by the same amount, at the same time, in all media. By the by, I picked 5 movies in my head to check the rating of. Only Live Free and Die Hard was PG-13. The others, linked above, were all R. As a possible example of moving lines, the other three Die Hards were all R rated.


Horsepuckies. I can't find any source that reports this. Please cite a source that says more (a higher percentage of) theatres are showing NC-17 movies now than used to show X or NC-17 back in the day. Movies cut down to R do not count. Those are R rated movies when they are shown, just like the Punisher was an M rated game when it was sold.

DOOM, is the only one you mentioned that could pass as a PG13 flick well maybe U-S could as well, POTC2 should be a R yet its PG13 and a few other movies of its ilk are also PG13,there on the cusp of being R,games too get rated in in that way,I am suggesting that depending on the spotlight they do not rate all things evenly.

There is a lot more give and take to the system then you seem to want to admit, god knows I talk to the flowers on the wall and see thighs when they are not there but on this is not to ridiculous to comprehend.

Did you check out Thrill kill? now theres a game thats a solid M(even for the time) that got no end of grief for being a 3D mortal kombat,speaking of which are the newer MKs sicne the PS2 days as detailed as the 2D ones?

Mmmmmmm just having a odd thought if a fighter game came out thats a mix of MK and DOA would it past the M test.....mmm I think it would so I have not lost all faith in the ESRB just more pissed at the system as a whole.

wasn't punisher PG13 in the theaters I watched it and it was not very R material...mmmmmm uhg memory and general brain functions fail me right now ><

Thanks for taking the time to post you bring facts to my bloated pooy opinions ,even tho I think theres more truth in them than poo LOL

[Ohma]

Without reading all of the last seven pages of what I'll assume was an argument between Zippy and some other people, I'll jump in with my idea on how to change the ESRB (other rating systems have their own issues) for the better.

I think that the AO rating, as is, is useless. Sure there are maybe one or two games a year that submit themselves to the ESRB for classification and fit into the AO category but most of them (re: all but one so far), have been games that are porn. My idea: why not have a specific rating for porn, and free up the AO rating for use.

Granted, the first thing you'd have to do is convince retailers and console manufacturers to stop being chicken****s about the AO rating, but I should think that when all the next Murderspacesoldeirs 2: Chainsaw Bayonet games were properly rated, that there wouldn't be much choice. (and Granny Doe has no room to complain if the rating on the back of Mss2:CB says ADULTS ONLY!)

This would also help in that there wouldn’t be nearly as many games edited down just enough (e.g. no guts falling out of someone's torso when you shoot them, but still blood everywhere and them screaming in agony) to get an M or T rating.

So my rating system (where AO is equivalent to an R in movies) would be something like this:
E: Katamari Damacy, Wii Sports,
E10+: The Sims, Pikmin, TLoZ: Wind Waker
T: Okami, Warcraft 3, Pirates!
M: Halo, Oblivion, Diablo 2
AO: Gears of War, System Shock 2, Grand Theft Auto 3: San Andreas

So the difference between M and AO is the amount of violence and abstraction. So in Halo, while you are shooting guys in 1st person perspective, there is little blood, and the game is set in a fantastical world. Similarly in Diablo 2, despite all the blood and descriptions of horrible things, you're still fighting little red demon dudes who collapse in a puddle of their own blood, and it's in a 3rd person isometric view to boot.
Conversely, System Shock 2, while not having all that much more blood and gore than Oblivion, is much more psychologically visceral (e.g. recordings from people planning to kill themselves and their children so that they don't get absorbed by the Many).

[ZippyDSMlee]

Without reading all of the last seven pages of what I'll assume was an argument between Zippy and some other people, I'll jump in with my idea on how to change the ESRB (other rating systems have their own issues) for the better.

I think that the AO rating, as is, is useless. Sure there are maybe one or two games a year that submit themselves to the ESRB for classification and fit into the AO category but most of them (re: all but one so far), have been games that are porn. My idea: why not have a specific rating for porn, and free up the AO rating for use.

Granted, the first thing you'd have to do is convince retailers and console manufacturers to stop being chicken****s about the AO rating, but I should think that when all the next Murderspacesoldeirs 2: Chainsaw Bayonet games were properly rated, that there wouldn't be much choice. (and Granny Doe has no room to complain if the rating on the back of Mss2:CB says ADULTS ONLY!)

This would also help in that there wouldn’t be nearly as many games edited down just enough (e.g. no guts falling out of someone's torso when you shoot them, but still blood everywhere and them screaming in agony) to get an M or T rating.

So my rating system (where AO is equivalent to an R in movies) would be something like this:
E: Katamari Damacy, Wii Sports,
E10+: The Sims, Pikmin, TLoZ: Wind Waker
T: Okami, Warcraft 3, Pirates!
M: Halo, Oblivion, Diablo 2
AO: Gears of War, System Shock 2, Grand Theft Auto 3: San Andreas

So the difference between M and AO is the amount of violence and abstraction. So in Halo, while you are shooting guys in 1st person perspective, there is little blood, and the game is set in a fantastical world. Similarly in Diablo 2, despite all the blood and descriptions of horrible things, you're still fighting little red demon