ESRB,zippy+thoughts round 2 GO!

[ZippyDSMlee]

Its that time,time once again boys and girls for zippy to sit down and think,think long and not so hard abut things that are way over his head but I digress its time once again for thoughts with zippy!


After some thought(ZOMG! zippy thinks!?!?) I have come to the conclusion that a major shift in the ESRB is bad dropping M to 16 and dropping AO for a M18 level would possibly cause irreparable damage to the ESRB the change is to sudden and swift while it might be what it would be in 5+ years,I have come across a better approach that just might hit all the angels.

That approach being M15+,why you ask 15,because 1/3rd the world stops rating games at 15 and some" M17" games are baned or toned down in thos regions so a M15 level for lite R titles is a start to use M17 as a place for real R titles,titles that fall in between the hard R of bioshock if it had killable lil sisters and the NC17 of Mathunt 2.

Come to think of it MS should step up and become the Sega of today and have their own approval process to clear AO games on it(Dev>ESRB>if AO> MS gets final say), this way they can weed out sex games and leave in DOA with topless nudity and have high profile games like Man hunt 2 on their system, MS should play to their strength not water down for the mainstream.

[ZippyDSMlee]

some other good thoughts from the news thread on the main page

AO has been highjacked much like X was,AO needs to be reworked for porn games only and a new rating based on violence be put in place for retailers to sneer at but not ban for fear of fou market loss.

I think a few good steps would be to start building up M17 as a solid R not the wishy washy thing it has become,to do that you need a T or M 15+ level for lite r content to go to this can be helpful to raise overly violent PG13 games to a reasonable level as well, with this in place M17 can be used for content under the level thats in “Manhunt 2″ ,while manhunt 2 and NC17 level stuff can get a 18R level and all of this censorship nonsense can be put into the ground.


Heres how zippy would change the ESRB for the ebtter

EC for early learning
E for all
10+ for mature kids
T13+ for teens
M15+ for mature teens (this would replace the burnt of M titles with thos that go over to middle or higher R goign to M17+)

M17+ for adults this can be used for any game type but sex based games

AO=sex based games



I so love the Manhunt 2 scandle where everyone was loving the game couldn't wait for it till the AO sign then ZOMG "insert witty dune line" because the spice hit the fan.........

[LegallyBlindGamer]

To be honest, I totally agree. We should set up a new rating system that does the things you're talking about, convince retailers and publishers to abandon the ESRB, and Keep Vance away from video games.

[ZippyDSMlee]

To be honest, I totally agree. We should set up a new rating system that does the things you're talking about, convince retailers and publishers to abandon the ESRB, and Keep Vance away from video games.

I think the ESRB is coddling the industry and has become a fou governmental board,they need to get back to just rating and having aproperaite rating levels

the inclusion of NC17 based games is a no brainier however when you have them tied to pron games you can not move on from there because porn keeps it from being a reasonable rating.

There are thous that say tis adult only regardless thus it wont matter if you change it or not,sorry thats just BS,in order for change to come you need the foundation for it without the change of AO to be porn only and something for NC17 games only you can not change you can not grow you can not "mature".

the ESRB is now just playing politics with the issue and are piratically no better than if congress ran the damn thing.


I think vance is doing a ok job for the what the focus of the ESRB is currently,its not "vance" thats the problem presay its the direction of the ESRB to coddle the industry and politicians by by coping out.

[Jabrwock]

Just like to point out that this does nothing to change the console makers minds about "extreme" content. They've said publicly that they won't allow excessively violent games either, so you could come up with all the new ratings you want, and consoles still won't be able to play them...

If Manhunt 2 were for the PC I can easily see them go the Indigo Prophesy route and release both an M and AO version. But for consoles? There's no point.

[ZippyDSMlee]

Just like to point out that this does nothing to change the console makers minds about "extreme" content. They've said publicly that they won't allow excessively violent games either, so you could come up with all the new ratings you want, and consoles still won't be able to play them...

If Manhunt 2 were for the PC I can easily see them go the Indigo Prophesy route and release both an M and AO version. But for consoles? There's no point.

and without admitting theres a difference in porn and NC17 theres no need to worry about it because it will always be dismissed as to exstream..


by placing a NC17 level in you start the healing prossess however slow that might be,without it its a tumor to be ignored....

[ZippyDSMlee]

I still do not liek it but it seems AO is here to stay as it is a NC17 level thats very frowned on because there is no retail level to sale it on to make a profit off it.

However M15 seems to the best option,by taking some pressure off M17 and funneling the lite R/hard 13 games to M15 the industry might find a better way out of its rut.

[ZippyDSMlee]

The ESRB is a industry pillar thats fallen to stagnation only its happen faster than the MPAA but at least it has not lost all of its reputation.

I think the ESRB should change how it is doing things it IS NOT 100% blameless in this its ignoring issues.

First off send a message to the console makers that their version of censorship is no better than anyone else's by dissolving AO and tell them that they can ban the approval of "unrated" games on the consoles all they want and when they are ready to not blindly ban titles they will leave AO in the "unrated thus baned" category,this will of corse not effect 18+ PC titles they will merely receive a NOT RATED mark and the ESRB discriptors.

Secondly Ignore politicians and the Game industry its job is rating games to their appropriate levels not coddle whoever has money whines endlessly.

Third Add M or T 15+ to the teen end of the ratings levels much like E10 a 15+ level is needed and it would then take the brunt of M titles that are lite R or hard PG13 (Sudeiki,Castvinla,ect) leaving M for true R level games like "G"OW,most harder FPSs and games like Manhunt and prehaps in time it can harden some more but for now it needs to be more solid and inline with films.

taken from my post
http://gamepolitics.com/2007/08/28/ian-bogost-console-makers-are-the-real-censors/

[ZippyDSMlee]

Its the ESRB changes they can ignore the AO issue and even the censorship from the console makers,however they can not ignore the waffling in their ratings structure because gaming is as much a kids pass time as adults and the ESRB is more flexible than the MPAA they need to further polish and sort games and looking at other countries and how they handle their rating issues its well within reason that they should do, and you ask what it is they should do.

T15


And you wonder why T,because the politician is a simple creature easily distracted by easy to garner votes and if left with any room to misconstrued they will rally the unknowing sheeple against their own wool.

With T15 in place all the harder than PG13 and lite R titles (there are more than you think) will fall into it,yes the anti crowed will cry foul and cry to thier parents who they still live with that the world might be treating teens like teens but its time people grew the fck up.

[weatherlight]

I like the T15+ title better then the M15+ it would mean that the "teens" could buy halo, while still keeping games like GTA:SA more for the older crowd. It would also allow the ESRB to take their time doing a re-rating. Then I think that the M should be an M17+ to show the distinction on when an older games received its rating.

[ZippyDSMlee]

I like the T15+ title better then the M15+ it would mean that the "teens" could buy halo, while still keeping games like GTA:SA more for the older crowd. It would also allow the ESRB to take their time doing a re-rating. Then I think that the M should be an M17+ to show the distinction on when an older games received its rating.

And prehaps keep games like metroid prime and dragon quest 8 out of the hands of 13 year olds, its a good middle ground to reshuffle on.

Its a shame I didn't think of it to begin with but I was to focused on the adult level.

while your on what other games could clearly fit into T15
I was thinking sudeki basic gore basic sexuality,castlvina would be good for it unless they go more horror, RE is pretty much a M title ,most the .hack games could well fall into it or PG13, FF12 while not gory dose have a strong story ,like the diffrance in FF1 remake(E6) and FF6(E10).

I think publishers would be happy with it,it expands their horizons some, and retail can always snub a game for any reason, tryign to find a reason its not a good ieda.

[ZippyDSMlee]

Adding on to thoughts and what not lil by lil T15 is becoming more relevant but a new idea has crossed the desert of my mind(scary I know but bear with me).

Looking at the BBFC and the German ratings board they have 1 fatal flaw they ban, the BBFC sets the age range with the rules set by the goverment that restricts the sale of media to minors their is no need to ban, Germany takes this one more step and bans the display of the media to minors/public.

My question for everyone can the US implement a "see no evil here no evil" basically meaning that R rated material can not be displayed in public, you can advert it sure but by removing it from sight and making sure that kids do not get any R rated media this would end the threat of bans, of coarse this would need retail to step in line and use it they most likely not fiddling with stock more than they have to I can see them pitching a grade A fit.

also what dose hiding it accomplish anyone have any thoughts to that?

[ZippyDSMlee]

Something esrb related on the main site.

Ex-Game Rater Dishes the Dirt… ESRB Boss Fires Back

An ex-employee has pulled the curtain back a bit on the enigma that is the Entertainment Software Rating Board.

In a guest shot for the April issue of Electronic Gaming Monthly, Jerry Bonner, who spent six months with the ESRB as one of the organization’s first crop of full-time content raters, offers his perspective on the video game rating process and what he feels are the problems therein. EGM also gave ESRB president Patricia Vance (left) a chance to respond. She did, taking issue with most of Bonner’s points.

Bonner, who rated more than 700 games in his short ESRB stint, writes that the system needs to be fixed in order to keep government censors from stepping in. He offers a six-point solution which includes:

1.) Dropping the “Adults Only” rating and and adding a T-16 to go along with the current Teen rating, which is intended for those 13 and older.

2. Actually playing the games. This has already become a political issue given Sen. Sam Brownback’s Truth in Video Game Ratings Act, now pending before the U.S. Senate. Bonner writes:

The ESRB’s current pool of fulltime raters… does not actually play the games that they rate. They just watch submitted videotapes or DVDs of someone else playing the game…

I would strongly suggest having the raters play the games to completion and carefully log their findings throughout the playtest. I’ve already heard the ESRB’s argument on this one: “That’ll take way too long and it will compromise our turnaround time.” My solution to that is simple: Hire more people.

3. Forget “parity” - If Bonner is correct, the ESRB bases sequel ratings on preceding games in the franchise, terming this “parity.” Bonner writes:

Parity to the ESRB is like dots to Pac-Man or blood to Dracula - a lifesustaining fuel. The logic goes like this: If game X gets a Teen rating, then it stands to reason that the sequel will get the same and so on and so forth into infinity. In my time as a rater this concept just handcuffed us more than helped us… Forget the whole concept of parity, or minimize the dependence on it, and judge each individual game solely on its content and nothing else.

4. Be more open - In GP’s experience, Bonner is correct that the ESRB is pretty secretive about its operations:

I used to tell a joke while working at the ESRB that their acronym should be changed to CIA… Realistically, there is nothing to hide at the ESRB. Everything was above board as far as I could tell… But by acting in a secretive, mysterious way, the ESRB creates an appearance of impropriety.

In addition, Bonner wants raters to have more say in final rating determinations as opposed to what appears to be somewhat of a committee approach. He also sees the development of competitive rating systems as a way to motivate the ESRB to improve.

Not surprisingly, ESRB president Patricia Vance took issue with Bonner’s views, pulling no punches in a counterpoint which runs with Bonner’s article in EGM:

Mr. Bonner’s article contains numerous misleading statements, factual inaccuracies, and misrepresentations… The author also fails to mention the unique and limited nature of his six-month tenure at the ESRB…

He implies that we arbitrarily change ratings after the raters have done their jobs. This is not the case… And, contrary to Mr. Bonner’s contention, the fact that a title being rated is part of a series has no bearing on the decision…

The author unfortunately also confuses our efforts to ensure the integrity and trustworthiness of the ratings system with unnecessary levels of secrecy. It is regrettable that the author does not appreciate the importance of protecting the confidentiality of the raters to avoid even the possibility of undue influence from external sources.

At the end of the day, ESRB stands behind each rating it assigns, and the process by which it assigns those ratings.

http://gamepolitics.com/2008/03/06/ex-game-rater-dishes-the-dirt-esrb-boss-fires-back/
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1. this is my main complaint with the ESRB they need to rework the TEEN-ADULT tiers to make the system a non draconian ban it ban it ban it ratings board,we have NC17 dvds rated as unrated in wallmart for Christ sake!
Drop AO add a 15M or T16 or T15 and be done with it!

2. I do not feel fully playing through a game will helping rating it, bring out the hardest content of a game if you fail to divulge all of the hardest content of the script/scenes/gameplay you will be fined 10-20% of the games profits and you will be suspended from the ESRB until you pay up, keep the fines high and they wont dare screw it up.

3. W T F...a game needs to be rated on content regardless of WTF it is....

4.I do not think it needs to be more open if it drops the ban stick, without the ban stick games can be fully published without fear of begin blocked, unless they fail the approval process each console maker has.

[ZippyDSMlee]

good stuff on the main site,putting some of my replies here

# Infinity's End Says:
March 7th, 2008 at 10:11 pm

I’m not surprised there is internal strife amongst fellow or former employees of the ESRB. It’s a flawed system. Games are (obviously) not like movies, in that you can watch them for the 2-3hr. span of time that they last, and make your judgement call. They have to be experienced. Although a video may show 80-90% of what the game is like, that last 10% is what playing is all about and completely NOT doing that is like saying you don’t like food if you’ve never even tasted it. It just makes no logical sense, ESPECIALLY in a business perspective.

I do agree AO needs to be canned, but I also think M should be 18+. It’s NEVER too late to change this. And adding T-16 would be fine. The growing years of maturity from 13 through 16 are IMMENSE and wayyyy more than 17 to 18. The only problem from a business standpoint from changing the ratings is all those games that are on the market currently would also need to be changed, repackaged, relabeled, etc. and I seriously doubt this is something the industry wants to do.

Rating boards change over time unless something is republished the only rating stands (I can show you a few PG movies that are not R and a few R movies that were PG).

So what you do is change it and move forward give the retailers who give a flip a list and stickers and they can slap new rating sticker on the older packages.

The MPAA never gave much a damn about updating the whole line of media on the shelf neither should the ESRB.


I do not think we need a 18+ ratings level at this time because it will be boycotted by the industry it would be better to slot all Mature level and above games to M17 let the console makers cheery to pick the games for finial approval for launch on their console and be done with that until the industry as a whole can be mature enough to admit it wont ban adult games.

As for the teen level add a T15 to it and stuff thats around the MPAA PG13 level maybe alil harder can be slotted there.