Condemned 2 being censored

[Berg]

Kotaku (http://kotaku.com/gaming/balls-in-a-vice/condemned-2-gets-castrated-281926.php) has posted that Sega has been cutting content from Condemned 2 due to the AO rating that Manhunt2 received.
I worked on [Indigo Prophecy]and had to cut the sex scenes out of the game for the US...It sucked because I don't believe in that, right. But you've got to do what you've got to do. We're working closely with the ESRB to make sure everything goes through okay but there's stuff we've cut already. There were things we were doing that even I couldn't believe we were going to those places....An example of what we cut would be putting someone's head in a vice. That was too much, you know.
I think the first comment sums up my thoughts well.
Did this slope just get slippery?

[Darth_Toxic]

I'm glad we're even getting a Condemned 2.

If this turns into a trend of needlessly censoring games, though (Which I am almost certain it will,) there will be hell to pay!

[KN]

Dear America,

For a very long time we have put up with your indirect, or direct, ****ing with our world. We shrugged it off as we delighted in the finer parts of your otherwise diseased nation. But I'm afraid now you have gone too far.

Your politicians are indirectly censoring video games. Video games that are released here. I honestly don't care what gets cut out, but I do care that we don't get to see it because of YOU.

So dear America, please, use your so often praised second amendment... and blast the **** out of the United States congress.

This is all ^_^

[Brokenscope]

Um.. dude? Would any of the console makers License a game with an AO equivalent rating where you live?

Though I would love for a chance to at least wing most of the people who inhabit the senate.

[KN]

Um.. dude? Would any of the console makers License a game with an AO equivalent rating where you live?

Though I would love for a chance to at least wing most of the people who inhabit the senate.


Plenty of games get an 18+ rating here, and are merrily sold in stores.

[MachShot]

Dear America,

For a very long time we have put up with your indirect, or direct, ****ing with our world. We shrugged it off as we delighted in the finer parts of your otherwise diseased nation. But I'm afraid now you have gone too far.

Your politicians are indirectly censoring video games. Video games that are released here. I honestly don't care what gets cut out, but I do care that we don't get to see it because of YOU.

So dear America, please, use your so often praised second amendment... and blast the **** out of the United States congress.

This is all ^_^

Our congress is so stalled, it would take months to blast our congress, and thats not counting the senate. They would have endless filibusers on why thry should not be blasted.

But hey, the Congress aproval rating is 14% in this country. We hate our governing systems' current state.

[Pelor]

Dear America,

For a very long time we have put up with your indirect, or direct, ****ing with our world. We shrugged it off as we delighted in the finer parts of your otherwise diseased nation. But I'm afraid now you have gone too far.

Your politicians are indirectly censoring video games. Video games that are released here. I honestly don't care what gets cut out, but I do care that we don't get to see it because of YOU.

So dear America, please, use your so often praised second amendment... and blast the **** out of the United States congress.

This is all ^_^

What the hell are you talking about? Congress isn't censoring anything. It isn't even the ESRB who's censoring it. And hell -- the story even says it only effects the US version.

So again, whatchu talkin' 'bout, Willis?

[beemoh]

And hell -- the story even says it only effects the US version.

No it doesn't. It says that the US version of Indigo Prophecy was toned down, not Condemned 2.

Either way, whatever happens to the US version of the game happens to every other version of the game. Because whatever content is not in the US version, it won't be in any other version, either- it doesn't matter how many Europeans can handle heads in vices, because aparrently the Americans can't, so we can't either.

Case in point: I went for a job interview at a UK games studio the other day. When they were telling me about the game, they said they were aiming for a 'Teen' rating. Not a '12' or a '15' from the British Board of Film Classification, nor a '12+' or '16+' from the Pan European Game Information board. A 'Teen' from the ESRB- the American ratings board.

Maybe, if a full-fat version of Condemned 2 was to be submitted to a non-US censor board they'd make the same decisions the ESRB are, but they need to be allowed to make the decisions themselves.

[KN]

What the hell are you talking about? Congress isn't censoring anything. It isn't even the ESRB who's censoring it. And hell -- the story even says it only effects the US version.

So again, whatchu talkin' 'bout, Willis?

Sega is fearful of a political backlash. In which the dimmer part of Congress would play a part.

[Tollwutig]

All I can say to those who are complaining that companies cater to the U.S. audience, create an economy as big as ours and then you have companies cater to your market.

Other wise, Congress, nor the ESRB, nor Nintendo, nor Sony are cutting content from this game. Congress nor the ESRB, nor Nintendo, nor Sony have said that Manhunt 2 can not be sold in the United States. Congress nor the ESRB have any say so in to whether or not Manhunt 2 is sold at all. Please get your facts straight:


Congress as of yet has not made any laws controlling the content of video games.

The ESRB is a ratings board, and does not control what the console manufacturers will or will not license on their systems. The ESRB also has no say so in to what retailers will and will not carry on their shelves. The ESRB only assigns ratings to video games submitted to them, and then qualifies rated games for advertising. Get this an ESRB rating is even voluntary.

The Console Manufacturers also have no control over the sell of a video game, only the licensing of said video game on their particular hardware. It is entirely within their right to license what they choose on their game.

Game developers are solely in control of the content they develop. They are free to choose not to submit their games for rating, or accept an AO rating. Albeit in both instances they will more than likely have to use a PC version which is sold internet only.


I shall quote Brokenscope from the article on the main page.

Maybe the developers shouldn’t have hurt the PC market by constantly developing titles that didn’t scale down well to weaker hardware. Maybe they need to grow some collective balls and tell the big 3 console makers to **** off and license AO games. Maybe they need to work with the ESRB to define a new ratings label to denote Adult Violence. Maybe they need to tell the ERA to stop being ****ing stupid and sell AO games.

[Brokenscope]

dur... I meant to put IEMA not ERA. YAY FOR ACRONYMS AND INDUSTRY GROUPS.

[beemoh]

I don't know where you're getting Manhunt 2 from there, but I'll skip over that and come to the main point:

Congress as of yet has not made any laws controlling the content of video games.

This, yes, is true- but the reason we have the ESRB in the first place is because some group in the US threatened to start passing laws like that unless the games industry started a ratings system. Now, I can't remember exactly which group that was off the top of my head- I do, however, remebering it starting with "C" and ending in "ongress", but that's all.

To be fair, yes, this has been nearly entirely brought on by the games industry, and its terrifying willingness to buckle at the slightest threat. But that doesn't absolve Congress of the responsibility of threatening in the first place.

[Pelor]

No it doesn't. It says that the US version of Indigo Prophecy was toned down, not Condemned 2.
oops, but i rae a gud reeder!

Either way, whatever happens to the US version of the game happens to every other version of the game. Because whatever content is not in the US version, it won't be in any other version, either- it doesn't matter how many Europeans can handle heads in vices, because aparrently the Americans can't, so we can't either.

Case in point: I went for a job interview at a UK games studio the other day. When they were telling me about the game, they said they were aiming for a 'Teen' rating. Not a '12' or a '15' from the British Board of Film Classification, nor a '12+' or '16+' from the Pan European Game Information board. A 'Teen' from the ESRB- the American ratings board.

Maybe, if a full-fat version of Condemned 2 was to be submitted to a non-US censor board they'd make the same decisions the ESRB are, but they need to be allowed to make the decisions themselves.
I'm gonna be a jack-ass and respond to that.

Work for a company that doesn't sell games to the US. Such a company doesn't exist? Okay, then just tell Americans to stop buying video games.

[ZippyDSMlee]

oops, but i rae a gud reeder!


I'm gonna be a jack-ass and respond to that.

Work for a company that doesn't sell games to the US. Such a company doesn't exist? Okay, then just tell Americans to stop buying video games.

there are a few pubs that do sell games to the US but Japan and euro land have issues with violence so balls in a vice might be ok but god forbid you damage a corpse...its bad enough with ID made same team soldiers in more recent games be un damageable theres you some odd "editing" right there *L*

[beemoh]

I'm gonna be a jack-ass and respond to that.

Work for a company that doesn't sell games to the US. Such a company doesn't exist? Okay, then just tell Americans to stop buying video games.

You know, there's a reason why the US comes in for so much hatred and criticism from the rest of the world, and gets its image of seeing itself as the World Police- it's this "We're bigger than you, so you have to do what we say, right or wrong" attitude.

Ironically enough, It's the exact thing we keep criticising the MSM and numerous politicians for doing on here.

I honestly don't see why it's my- or indeed, any other- nation's problem that yours can't handle seeing a pretend head go into a pretend vice. In fact, we all have our own ratings systems for that very reason- that we can pretend to squash fake heads in fictional vices even if other, irrelevant nations don't want to.

Since you missed the point of the last sentence of my other post so spectauarily, I'm going to finish on it a second time:

Maybe, if a full-fat version of Condemned 2 was to be submitted to a non-US censor board they'd make the same decisions the ESRB are, but they need to be allowed to make the decisions themselves.

[ZippyDSMlee]

You know, there's a reason why the US comes in for so much hatred and criticism from the rest of the world, and gets its image of seeing itself as the World Police- it's this "We're bigger than you, so you have to do what we say, right or wrong" attitude.

Ironically enough, It's the exact thing we keep criticising the MSM and numerous politicians for doing on here.

I honestly don't see why it's my- or indeed, any other- nation's problem that yours can't handle seeing a pretend head go into a pretend vice. In fact, we all have our own ratings systems for that very reason- that we can pretend to squash fake heads in fictional vices even if other, irrelevant nations don't want to.

Since you missed the point of the last sentence of my other post so spectauarily, I'm going to finish on it a second time:

Maybe, if a full-fat version of Condemned 2 was to be submitted to a non-US censor board they'd make the same decisions the ESRB are, but they need to be allowed to make the decisions themselves.

If it was in a movie it may or may not be R or NC17 depending on the rest of the film,if manhunt or condemned was a movie I could see it getting R-NC17 but god of war would get a NC17 because of the detailed monster gore.

I think its funny how odd both rantings boards are and how much they can improve.

[Brokenscope]

I would like to officially apologize for being part of a very large and influential market segment.

I am sorry that Microsoft will not license certain games on their console.

I am sorry that developers don't put creativity before profit.

I am sorry that developers put our market before the rest of the world.

I am not sorry that my nations views differ from yours.

I am very pissed off about the direction my country is going in.

[ZippyDSMlee]

I would like to officially apologize for being part of a very large and influential market segment.

I am sorry that Microsoft will not license certain games on their console.

I am sorry that developers don't put creativity before profit.

I am sorry that developers put our market before the rest of the world.

I am not sorry that my nations views differ from yours.

I am very pissed off about the direction my country is going in.
I don't buy new games thus I am not part of the "market" they market to.

MS needs to learn that holding games for ransom is bad for profits,after a year release the poor game on PC already.

Screw creativity just put polish before profits!

Devs /Pubs spend way to much time "locolizing" to the US.

The needs of US out way the needs of the many =0.o=

I am very pissed off about the direction my country/Game industry is going in

You know, there's a reason why the US comes in for so much hatred and criticism from the rest of the world, and gets its image of seeing itself as the World Police- it's this "We're bigger than you, so you have to do what we say, right or wrong" attitude.

Ironically enough, It's the exact thing we keep criticising the MSM and numerous politicians for doing on here.

I honestly don't see why it's my- or indeed, any other- nation's problem that yours can't handle seeing a pretend head go into a pretend vice. In fact, we all have our own ratings systems for that very reason- that we can pretend to squash fake heads in fictional vices even if other, irrelevant nations don't want to.

Since you missed the point of the last sentence of my other post so spectauarily, I'm going to finish on it a second time:

Maybe, if a full-fat version of Condemned 2 was to be submitted to a non-US censor board they'd make the same decisions the ESRB are, but they need to be allowed to make the decisions themselves.

I forgot to mention the UK has a slight ban on hurting corpses thus you get a game like Juarez thats like any other shooter but you get you get a odd x courser on corpses its not as bad as Q4s no fire on space marines that can get you killed (its hell to fire over their shoulders and give cover fire..oh and they can shoot you....).

My point is every one censors in different ways depdning on where their political winds blow.

[ZippyDSMlee]

As long as console manufacturers require you to be rated by the ESRB then those companies do censor products developed for their consoles. However if those companies allowed ALL games that have been rated by the ESRB to be released on their system it would not be censorship it would simply be labeling the product according to what the ESRB says it is. These FACTS state that the ESRB's ratings directly play into the console manufacturer's policy which forces game developers to censor themselves.

As consumers of these products we have the right to complain about policies related with such products. As stockholders AND consumers we have even more of a right to complain about company policy. However most of us do not own stock in those companies so we are simply consumers. Console manufacturers have the right to ignore consumers and even stockholders(as long it isn't the majority) but its generally not a good business move.

If consumers wish for policies to change shouldn't their voice be represented? Yes they should, if a consumer feels he a policy is negatively effecting them they should have a voice in the matter. I was under the impression that this is what the ECA was meant to accomplish. If that isn't what the ECA is meant for then please enlighten me on the subject.

Console manufacturers have control of the sale of games as long as they have the right to not allow games to be released on their console. Can't sell well if it isn't released obviously.

Just because Congress hasn't passed any laws doesn't mean that they won't in the future.

The ECA was created to give gamers a voice. If gamers want to bring changes to a companies policy then ECA should support us. Those companies have every right to ignore us and blow us off but as consumers of their products and ECA members if we feel like the issue should be pressed over and over again then thats how it should be with support of the ECA.

Try writing to the ECA even zippy got Mr.Haplin the man himself to respond to one of his so so question/comments/rants, it should still be in the ECA thread,I myself have been tryign to write a paragraph oh AO and when will it flower into a usable rating when will X(AO) become "NC17" something pubs can slot games in and not shun.

I think the ECA and ESA would do well to nudge the console makers off the AO issue mainly because 70% of retail wont touch it.

[Tollwutig]

.... forces game developers to censor themselves.
You stated it right there, the developers censor themselves. They don't have to they could find a way of delivering their art to the masses in some other way, but developers choose profit over art every time. In seeking higher profits developers censor themselves.

I keep bringing this point up, but people keep ignoring it. I wish someone would think about the potential legal consequences of Manhunt 2 & Condemned 2 being modified to fit the consoles. It is a philosophical question and people should think about. The question boils down to, if you modify your art to make higher profit, is it still art, or even speech?

As consumers of these products we have the right to complain about policies related with such products.

You are correct, and until those complaints actually affect profits, the manufacturers have every right to ignore those complaints. They actually have the right to ignore such complaints even when they are affecting profits.
Currently the soccer mom vote has more power than gamers with elected officials. This gives elected officials the ability to take vote pandering moves against the video game industry, all the while generating more fear about the horrors of video games in the soccer mom contingency. Since the soccer mom contingency controls the purse strings to a large number of console and video game sales the console manufacturers must fear them becoming too fearful of video games.
In short: As long as soccer moms can be semi-organized out of fear, and the rest of gamers dis-organized out of indifference, the manufacturers must follow business practices that would not cause fear in the soccer moms.

[beemoh]

I keep bringing this point up, but people keep ignoring it. I wish someone would think about the potential legal consequences of Manhunt 2 & Condemned 2 being modified to fit the consoles. It is a philosophical question and people should think about. The question boils down to, if you modify your art to make higher profit, is it still art, or even speech?

Depends if you had anything to say in the first place, and more importantly, the changes you make- there were doctored screenshots (http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=6262&Itemid=52) of Manhunt 2 floating about which see the protagonist giving people presents and flowers instead of business ends of knives.

If Rockstar were to do this, keep the gameplay the same and just do these cosmetic tweaks, then that would probably be speech in itself *about* the censorship system, if not the speech they originally planned for with MH2.

[ZippyDSMlee]

Depends if you had anything to say in the first place, and more importantly, the changes you make- there were doctored screenshots (http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=6262&Itemid=52) of Manhunt 2 floating about which see the protagonist giving people presents and flowers instead of business ends of knives.

If Rockstar were to do this, keep the gameplay the same and just do these cosmetic tweaks, then that would probably be speech in itself *about* the censorship system, if not the speech they originally planned for with MH2.

And the AO banstick to games that have killable children in it is worry some Bioshock got nudge with it and I wonder how they will dance around the issue in FO3...

Its kinda sad when they take it to that level,theres lil diffrance between sprites and models when it comes to adults "leveling" the playing filed .......

[ZippyDSMlee]

How do you get this to effect their profits?

Raising awareness of the situation(aka what I'm do with these messages and conversations that I have with people). And hopefully, if a local ECA chapter gets created, I can help put together a proposal to get petitions and what not to hopefully the ECA can bring a resolve to this issue.

I want the elected officials and all video game publishers, console manufacturers and retailers to begin to FEAR us as gamers. After all the game industry has the gamers to thank for its success, and the retailers do too partially. And well the elected officials have their voters to thank so yea we have less influence there but every little bit helps.

=) thanks for justifying everyone of my posts on the subject.

it would help if the gamers were a bit less easy to sway with cheap costly games,my being while not your bissfull happy sheeple they are sheeple none the less

[ZippyDSMlee]

Not all gamers fit into your description.

Neither do gamers you will find half-ish are happy with the current industry and all the games it puts out they do not see the need to worry over qaulity,art or censorship.

[Tollwutig]

Not all gamers fit into your description.

Unfortunately gamers don't fit into much of a description of any kind, particularly the Politically Active description.

Where as parents are an easily motivated political force. It is very simple to induce parents into a major voting force by simply stating that X will cause little Johnny harm. You don't need actual facts, or hard core data just an "expert" in the field on the evening news. Shortly there after you will have loads of parents coming out politically against X.

[Tollwutig]

Still your statements do nothing to disqualify any of my previous statements as valid.

Didn't say your statements were invalid. Just stating reality.
Gamers are unlikely to refuse buying games over Manhunt 2 where as Soccer moms are very likely to refuse to buy new consoles & games over Manhunt 2. When Gamer angst becomes greater than soccer mom fear you will begin to see change, until then it comes down to dollars. As the only organization representing the gamers themselves is still in the fledgling stages it is doubtful that change will be forthcoming quickly.

IF the ECA gains enough power to tell Sony/Nintendo/Microsoft that they will change their EULAs to allow AO games or it will tank their next console release, then you will see an immediate change. That means the ECA would have a few million members, and the power to convince every one of them to do exactly the same thing. Quite frankly I would find the ability to muster that kind of power, and that particular use of it to be frightening.