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ZippyDSMlee
06-12-2007, 11:38 PM
http://blog.newsweek.com/blogs/levelup/archive/2007/06/07/i-for-one-do-not-welcome-our-new-wii-overlords.aspx
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Perhaps its because I am a game nazi that sees the advent of graphics first a disgrace to gaming...prehaps its hard for my my lil brain to comprehend his big words..or prehaps he is merely a graphics/power nazi and is offended by the WII I dunno....but this perturbs zippy much...oh well...alas zippy is just zippy and will always ever be zippy...
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We made the acquaintance of SportsBlogNation president Tyler Bleszinski--yes, he's also the older brother, by three years, of Gears of War designer Cliff "Cliffyb" Bleszinski--after reading an eminently fair assessment that he'd written on his own blog Gearheads of War about our critique of the dialogue in Gears of War. Since then, we've emailed from time to time on subjects various and sundry. During one such exchange, prompted by our inaugural Monday Morning Quarterback post about the April sales charts, Bleszinski voiced his concern about the impact that the Wii--more specifically, the tidal wave of casual game-oriented newcomers that Nintendo's hit console was ushering into the market--would have on hardcore gamers like himself. Intrigued, we asked Bleszinski to tackle the following question, "Why do you feel threatened by the prospect of a dominant Wii?" Here is his reply.

.....You have the balls to claim "casual game/gamer" refrances when in fact the industry has been seeking to dull its ranks with zombie gamers who are happy eating the shiny new crap the indutry poos out without questioning WTH is going on ever since the late 90s and the 3D boom graphics has gotten all the detail with physics getting a piece of the pie leaving gameplay to rot and gameplay evolving slowly if at all.

My brother Cliff and I have been into games long before he ever created Gears of War. He and I played through the original Zelda together and I remember having tournaments with him where we'd play the original Nintendo Ice Hockey game. I liked to stack my team with the fat guys because they had a booming shot that could score from anywhere and were really good at checking. Cliff went the skinny guy route and tried to skate circles around me.

But the times, they are a-changing. If Nintendo has its way, young males will no longer be the dominant segment of the console audience--and this transition appears to be happening faster than I expected. The other day I was in Target looking to pick up some games when I saw an older woman--very likely a grandmother--waiting for the clerk's attention. She wanted him to get her a couple of games from inside the locked glass cabinet. When he asked her which ones, she stated Cooking Mama and Wii Play.
Your loseign me here when you were a kid games were abotu fun now there about drooling over shiny shallow graphics?
SO games are like film its not abotu fun but about plot? marketing? look?....oy.....
I could barely stifle a groan. Don't get me wrong; I think it's cute that someone who likely had no idea what a video game was would suddenly plunk down her Social Security money so she can cook virtual meals, play a rousing game of table tennis and shark her little grandchildren out of their milk money in billiards. But honestly, I had refused to believe that grandmothers were buying these things as so many news reports have claimed until I saw it with my own eyes. My story may be anecdotal, but the plural of anecdote is data, and there are more than enough news stories on this topic to suggest that this phenomenon is real.

What's more, Nintendo has the sales figures to back up its hype. The NPD sales figures since November have been troubling to me as a hardcore gamer who loves new IPs and in-depth experiences. The Nintendo Wii has built up a ton of momentum in 2007, and despite the fact that it features an internal architecture that maxes out graphically around where the original Xbox did, it has quickly become the darling of the non-gaming press. There have been umpteen stories about the scrappy little Wii wooing non-gamers and bringing in hordes of new converts to worship at the altar of Mario.



So brining in people to buy the games that would normally not sale is such a bad thing? what you seem to be saying is that is if they try and cater to the non dim wited zombie gamer and go for the non gamer that games will lose their "focus" again ...really hate to be the first to tell you this but between suits new marketing schemes and a lack of effort in polish and gameplay design focus is already lost and have been so for near 6 years now, it seems you are jealous Mario get a alter for game noobs and Halo remains only a elitists FPS.

BTW drop the power nazi line "graphics/power is everything" its really not if anythign fun is everything and marketing 2nd to it.

I'm not saying that the videogame industry shouldn't strive to bring in as many new people as possible. It most definitely should, because new gamers mean a nice, healthy business. My problem is what this new crowd appears to be drawn to. Games like Wii Sports, Wii Play and Cooking Mama have become some of the biggest sellers, and that is what has me worried. If these are the type of games that become blockbusters, then you can count on other gaming companies who cater to the more hardcore gamer--aka me and the milions of others who've been driving this business--to promptly change direction. If we've learned anything about videogame companies, it's that they all are quick to follow each other if one is successful with something. I mean, Sony already imitated the Wii a bit with their Sixaxis controller; Microsoft followed Sony with their own EyeToy-like camera, albeit far less successfully; and Sony is now trying to replicate some kind of online service a la Xbox Live. If Nintendo winds up outselling the 360 and the PS3 by a wide margin, how soon will it be before we gamers are using the Sixaxis to chop up onions with in Metal Gear Mama? How long before we're frantically swinging waggle remotes for tennis, bowling and golf in Halo Sports?
*sigh*
It seems you are lost in the hype drown from all sides and worry that games will suddenly be like movies with games catered to to the casual buyer... oh wait they have... with that said will this effect the industry in some ways yes as I stated before its about selling games that would have gone unnoticed before they are not going to noobfiy a MGS,Halo or Metroid Prime in oder to market it they will do what they always do play to their niches something Nintendo is god at and the others are jealous of it.

Also looking at the industry I do not see the WII placing its dreaded games on other systems nor do I see a spike in in devs flocking to it why? because the "non gamer" gamer niche is only about as big as the zombie gamer and "hard core gamer niche" BTW a hard core gamer is one who clings to the basic value of games that would be gameplay the fun factor that makes them want to play games graphics/power can be a part of but when it trumps everythign else you are deluded into the mainstream and that makes you a causal gamer, "non gamer" gamers are a odd lot potentially there are more of them but they are not goign to go out of their for it thus a tough niche to milk so again it all comes down to marketing to whatever niche you can fall into.


Will games like Halo and Gears of War ever go away? Hell no. But publishers aren't stupid. They're going to go where the majority of the money is and if people want to play the WarioWare mini-games more than the meaty experiences that hardcore gamers love, you're inevitably going to see a corresponding shift in development. Publishers are in the business of making money, so if they can spend six months or a year developing a mini-game package for five-year-old technology and make more profits than they would by spending 2-3 years crafting a long and detailed experience, you can bet your Wiimote that that's exactly what they'll do.

I feel for you on this but at the same time its like my own hate for holloywod because I hate the "products" they mainstream for the casual movie goer dose not mean the industry itself is a total waste the same can be said for the "change" thats "coming" but has already came and is now laying their smoking feeling good for itself what I mean is the changes you fear have already hit us you might not see it because you do not instigate and question things on the grounds of game play, I know I do it to much and the industry is seemingly happy with calling mediocre games "above average".

ZippyDSMlee
06-12-2007, 11:39 PM
If casual games become the industry's primary money-making vehicle, these mini-game collections and more casual games could wind up completely redefining the market. I don't think we're far off from the day when Hannah Montana Wii and Wii Sports 2 dominate the NPD charts. And as soon as that day comes, why would publishers want to continue to the time and effort to develop an in-depth, cinematic experience when they could slap together a bunch of mini-games with waggle and make just as much money, if not more? Remember, gaming is a love for you and me, but it's ultimately a business for these publishers and developers.

Again there is none if wake up and smell the roses you are what you hate(a causal gamer) that aside games will always flow on market trends and risks by devs there are by far enough devs to fill genre gaps on the WII if there was no 360 and PS3,you seem so focused on the industry but cant see the forest for the trees there will always be a place for party games, FPS,adventure and RPGs,the depth and cinemagic experiences you claim will never be lost...well unless the industry imploded on itself still the WII fills 3 niches at once kids/family,entertainment for non gamers(new interface),and Nintendo fan base of various gamer types, this wont be enough to fill the world and push out the 360 which is a "hard" casual gamer machine(like the PS2 was) and the PS3 which is the power based machine (like the Xbox before it) of this 7th generation of consoles, the WII is making head way no doubt and will soon over take the 360 as "number one".

So while the business of the Wii has great for Nintendo--surprise, surprise--and a handful of risk-takers like Ubisoft, it's thus far been ugly when it comes to the experiences beloved by core gamers like myself. The Wii has been chock full of mini-games, PlayStation 2 knockoffs and PSP ports. Yes, there has been The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess, but not much else in terms of lengthy, in-depth experiences. As for new intellectual properties, they've been pretty much few and far between, unless you consider Wii Sports and Wii Play new IPs; to me, they're more tech demos than anything else. At least the PS3 has Resistance and MotorStorm, with Lair right around the corner. The 360 has Gears of War, Viva Pinata and Crackdown. But for the Wii, most third parties would rather take the easy way out and continue to port older games with the waggle tacked on than devote the time and resources to creating great new experiences. The fact that the PS2 is still going incredibly strong isn't going to help the situation either, because it and the PSP will provide the Wii with an endless supply of ports for the Wii instead of forcing publishers and developers to think of new and in-depth experiences.
DUH its been out 8 or so months how well off was the 360 in its first 8 months? pretty damn sad thats what also as a gamer nazi I look at the WII and think the controls feel tacted on for most games polish and game control need to be the center for the WII if its to survive past the "non gamer niche".

Frankly I would love to see some PS2 ports to the wii darkwatch and other FPSs it would be nice to have some GOOD remakes too,the PSP is a is a crappy system to port to not because of the power which it has or the support which it dose not the controls of it are bad and they don't take the time to polish it this might be the case for WII ports after all cashing in is nothing new to gameing.

I'll repeat this again: I am not saying that the more hardcore games are going to die out. Smart developers and publishers will realize that they can make a mint off the hardcore, especially if more developers move towards the quick, jump in-jump out type of experience that many Wii and DS games offer. But they will be in the minority. Valve, Epic and others won't turn to making mini-game compilations, but I can definitely see companies like EA and Ubisoft realizing that they don't need huge development teams and hundreds of people working on a game to make a ton of cash in the land of mini-game moneymakers. It's like suddenly discovering that business plan behind McDonald's is applicable to video games.

Some will likely argue that these more casual games are a gateway drug for new users. They'll claim that we should be happy because it will bring a whole new group of people into gaming. I find it hard to believe that something like Wii Play could lead to someone like the little old lady I saw in the store playing Metroid Prime 3. I just don't see it happening. These same people didn't jump into hardcore games before the Wii, but they're suddenly going to do it now because they had some fun playing virtual bowling? I seriously doubt that. She's not going to go from creating a meal in Cooking Mama to saving Zelda. She's never going to defend Sera, guide Reggie Bush into the end zone, or venture into Liberty City. And should the product portfolios of major publishers become a zero-sum game, her tastes will represent a direct threat to my longtime hobby.
No its not goign to make gamers out of non gamers like buying a DVD player and having 5 DVDs dose not make you a movie watcher,having a line of games that non gamers can play will help more than it hurts now if the industry is foolish enough to fall into a trend and flood the market with crappy party games it deserves whatever the outcome will be, there is money hear they can tap into at the same time basic trends will apply and more or less not effect "normal" gamers because as you said most devs and pubs will focus on their normal niches.


I sincerely believe that bringing new people to video games is a good thing. I like seeing the business continue to grow and be even more successful, because I'm old enough to remember the videogame industry crash between the Atari 5200 and the Nintendo Entertainment System. But ultimately, going more mainstream can have unintended consequences--ones that could negatively impact the breadth and depth of the kinds of games that I love, as do millions of others. I think Mike Myers' Wayne Campbell said it best in "Wayne's World" when he was talking about that tool Benjamin Kane, played so memorably by Rob Lowe. "It's like he wants us to be liked by everyone. I mean Led Zeppelin didn't write tunes everybody liked. They left that to the Bee Gees." That statement could very well apply to the Wii and its software lineup.

Yes mainstreaming sucks but sadly gameing has been knee deep in that for years the WII is 1/3rd of gaming, 1/4th if you count computer, it alone can not change the trend one way or another at best it can bring in a new niche at worst it will drown itself in it but the industry itself will float on by.

Grahamr
06-13-2007, 01:09 AM
Well. It appears as if you have broken Godwin's law thrice over. Very well then...

NAZI THREAD!!!!!!!:D
http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/1/1c/200px-KroenenLG.jpg
http://www.bloodknight.net/Manga/Pictures/Cap11.jpg
http://www.hirhome.com/israel/mufti_inspecting2.jpg

John
06-13-2007, 01:14 AM
I agree with him. He makes sense.

If I wanted to play a mini-game, I'd play it on my iPod or cellphone. I play games for the exact same reason he does - for the experience, not for 5 minute entertainment.

But I wonder how long until Wii fanboys flame him to death - if they haven't done so already.

Ace_ofspade
06-13-2007, 01:26 AM
Godwin on post one, and then a more overt, purposeful one on post three.

ZippyDSMlee
06-13-2007, 11:20 AM
I agree with him. He makes sense.

If I wanted to play a mini-game, I'd play it on my iPod or cellphone. I play games for the exact same reason he does - for the experience, not for 5 minute entertainment.

But I wonder how long until Wii fanboys flame him to death - if they haven't done so already.

the trouble is gaming has already been "mainstreamed" not by "interactive" mini games but by unpolished brandizing, alsot eh main reason why the mini game effect dose not have wings without the dual motion controllers of the WII its pointless thus can not move beyond it.

Brokenscope
06-13-2007, 11:24 AM
Okay... I'm rather lost at this juncture.

What your saying is that the industry has focused on graphics and realism and neglected game play while another party of the industry is focusing on gameplay and player interaction while sacrificing depth. One caters to morons who will buy any shiny thing, one caters to people with short attention spans who don't play games as a hobby?

No one is focusing on the gamers who want a deep and involved gameplay experience that is fun and compelling?

Is that it?

ZippyDSMlee
06-13-2007, 12:10 PM
Okay... I'm rather lost at this juncture.

What your saying is that the industry has focused on graphics and realism and neglected game play while another party of the industry is focusing on gameplay and player interaction while sacrificing depth. One caters to morons who will buy any shiny thing, one caters to people with short attention spans who don't play games as a hobby?

No one is focusing on the gamers who want a deep and involved gameplay experience that is fun and compelling?

Is that it?

I am whining about a lack of focus on gameplay design while graphics and physics have gotten a boom over the last 6+ years fun gameplay and level layout has gotten lacks Doom 3 and Quake 4 are good examples of this either lacs or at least minimalistic level design really killed the games for me all of IDs games have had good level design and these feel like rush jobs for the masses one of the side effects from graphics first I think is limitations on level layout it takes to much time to fill maps with stuff unlike the old days where you didn't need "visual ambiance" ontop of that you have a max of stuff on screen.

there are a few other "A" class or flash ship games that have suffered from it, as much as I whine you'd think games suck, its not that bad yet, there are good games out there but mainstreaming has gotten to the point where most games are "unfinished" at time of release.

FF12=unfinished (see Japan release with "fixed" skill system)
Shadowrun=unfinished/IP cash in
Quake 4=unfinished/IP cash in (reason for cash in gun and run theme+ low sales)

Dawn Of mana unfinished/broken (each new area your stats/level reset this is a game feature to boot altho its more a arcade action game than a action rpg)

I can pick out more instacnes where the shizzle hits the fan UT03 is a rather weak sequel to UT poorly balanced odd feeling weapons then they release a make up game UT04 its complete but has the same odd feelign weapons.
Console Calestvina and mega man is stuck in shear stagnation the portable castlevina is goign fur uber generic fantasy and away from its core like FF has.....

I don't quite think/see the industry standard I base most of my game opinions off what I have played and how much fun the game is and I try and take note of all the broken parts of it (Halo 2 Graphic glitches+particle glitches+energy tank not having short range guns for single player= minus 1.5 point awkward controls minus another 1.5 points) its still a solid game more more like good rather than great and only now with the PC edition(that should be rated higher than the Xbox) is rated 7 what the Xbox should have been rated to start with.......and I am rambling....... ><
bah

*goes back to play call of cthulhu....son of a btch..why cant they drop ammo...they re spawn they have the upper hand a few shots your dead...its so fing unfair...oh wait inf ammo FTW!...mmm
god that arm animation makes its hard to handle doors in a emergency keep shutting myself out with the enemy*

John
06-13-2007, 02:38 PM
the trouble is gaming has already been "mainstreamed" not by "interactive" mini games but by unpolished brandizing, alsot eh main reason why the mini game effect dose not have wings without the dual motion controllers of the WII its pointless thus can not move beyond it.

They're both bad. But I think Brokenscope hit it on the head:

Okay... I'm rather lost at this juncture.

What your saying is that the industry has focused on graphics and realism and neglected game play while another party of the industry is focusing on gameplay and player interaction while sacrificing depth. One caters to morons who will buy any shiny thing, one caters to people with short attention spans who don't play games as a hobby?

No one is focusing on the gamers who want a deep and involved gameplay experience that is fun and compelling?

Is that it?

Exactly!

Picho
06-13-2007, 02:53 PM
In my belief...

The developer should not be creating games for the masses, but rather a game of themselves. The developer should have an extream desire to finish the game, simply so they can play it not so they can cash in.

As such i have been trying to work on a game, need a company to produce it though, that i wish i could play.

ZippyDSMlee
06-13-2007, 11:11 PM
"No one is focusing on the gamers who want a deep and involved gameplay experience that is fun and compelling?

Is that it?"

The simple answer is yes cashing in and mainstreaming pretty much hurts most games and kills some outright like Shadowrun unless you like a 60$ mediocre MP based console FPS game.

the industry can still make good games but the overall quality is off.

Picho
06-13-2007, 11:30 PM
Shadow run was also on pc. And it held my attention of all of two seconds.

At the end i found it was Vista only, so it was the lose.

ZippyDSMlee
06-14-2007, 12:06 AM
Shadow run was also on pc. And it held my attention of all of two seconds.

At the end i found it was Vista only, so it was the lose.

Did dues ex 2 on pc make it less of a console FPS?
:P

Picho
06-14-2007, 01:52 PM
did duec ex intrege me enough to really even care?