Amsterdam = America

[Theory?]

http://in.today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2007-06-09T040222Z_01_NOOTR_RTRMDNC_0_India-302273-1.xml&archived=False

KN, your country just dropped the ball.

[penarestel]

http://in.today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2007-06-09T040222Z_01_NOOTR_RTRMDNC_0_India-302273-1.xml&archived=False

KN, your country just dropped the ball.

OH SNAP!

10char

[KN]

Hah yeah, that's silly. That's the only place outside your home you can smoke that ****.

It's not like this will be upheld. We sort out bull**** legislation pretty quickly.

[Theory?]

No smoking in bars, and soon no drinking and no talking.

It has nothing to do with the pot, it has to do with how absolutely insane it is to ban smoking...IN BARS!!!

[Hannah]

No smoking in bars, and soon no drinking and no talking.

It has nothing to do with the pot, it has to do with how absolutely insane it is to ban smoking...IN BARS!!!

Wait... why is that a bad thing? I can't stand the smell of smoke, so it's kinda nice being able to go to bars now that they've banned smoking there in a bunch of Canadian cities. As far as I know, very few businesses were even harmed when the bans went into effect... smokers still went 'cause they wanted to drink, and non-smokers started going too because they weren't going to stink by the end of the evening.

[kurisu7885]

Wait... why is that a bad thing? I can't stand the smell of smoke, so it's kinda nice being able to go to bars now that they've banned smoking there in a bunch of Canadian cities. As far as I know, very few businesses were even harmed when the bans went into effect... smokers still went 'cause they wanted to drink, and non-smokers started going too because they weren't going to stink by the end of the evening.

Well, a nice compromise would have been a mandatory smoker section.

[Hannah]

Well, a nice compromise would have been a mandatory smoker section.

The main problem with that is that... well... you pretty much need a specially-designed smoking room (which the Netherlands bill seems to allow), or else the smoke will just drift over into the non-smoking section. Also, staff can't serve people in the smoking section because the main reason for these laws is to protect their health. It's much easier to just tell people to smoke outside, ideally some set distance away from the entrance.

[kurisu7885]

The main problem with that is that... well... you pretty much need a specially-designed smoking room (which the Netherlands bill seems to allow), or else the smoke will just drift over into the non-smoking section. Also, staff can't serve people in the smoking section because the main reason for these laws is to protect their health. It's much easier to just tell people to smoke outside, ideally some set distance away from the entrance.

Ok, that is better, an outdoot smoking area, which is perfect ventilation.

[seductivpancakes]

We got so much smoking laws in NYC its ridiculous. All the smokers do is flock to a street corner or something like that and smoke together causing that part of the block to be like small hazard zone. The in the office building where I work at smoke right outside the building where all the baby carriages stroll by because of a nearby day care center.

[Theory?]

We got so much smoking laws in NYC its ridiculous. All the smokers do is flock to a street corner or something like that and smoke together causing that part of the block to be like small hazard zone. The in the office building where I work at smoke right outside the building where all the baby carriages stroll by because of a nearby day care center.

There are several bars in NYC that use the inherent loop-hole in the NYC draft of the law, which states that the largest penalty is a fine, and establishments can only be fined once a month. So there are bars that keep a smoking jar out and every time someone wants to smoke, they drop a dollar in the jar and at the end of the month, the jar pays off the fine.

Frankly, Hannah, the problem is that it's a bloody bar. People smoke in bars. If you don't want to smell like smoke, don't go to the bar, go buy some beers and sit at home with some Lysol. Otherwise, swallow your pride and deal with it.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

Frankly, Hannah, the problem is that it's a bloody bar. People smoke in bars. If you don't want to smell like smoke, don't go to the bar, go buy some beers and sit at home with some Lysol. Otherwise, swallow your pride and deal with it.

There's a bit more than pride involved, while UI don't go to bars any more because of a number of reasons. since I quit smoking in 2004 (after my dad passed away from a massive heart attack due to smoking, I share too many physical qualities with him to ignore that), I personally get ill just smelling smoke now. Yes, it's a bar. The solution I've seen is to give cover charges -- changing the bar from a "bar" into a "private club", where smoking is OK. I'm with Hannah on this one, I really do like not having to smell tobacco smoke everywhere now. I'd much rather not get nauseated or worse.

[Tollwutig]

There are several bars in NYC that use the inherent loop-hole in the NYC draft of the law, which states that the largest penalty is a fine, and establishments can only be fined once a month. So there are bars that keep a smoking jar out and every time someone wants to smoke, they drop a dollar in the jar and at the end of the month, the jar pays off the fine.

Frankly, Hannah, the problem is that it's a bloody bar. People smoke in bars. If you don't want to smell like smoke, don't go to the bar, go buy some beers and sit at home with some Lysol. Otherwise, swallow your pride and deal with it.


I deal with smoke but sometimes bars are way too smoky. I'd prefer not having to come home and deodorize myself personally. Of course I am in NC so I don't ever see smoking banned from Bars. They finally banned it from inside the NC Senate Chambers this year.

[Theory?]

I used to go to a local Jazz club run by a very famous Jazz drummer named Cecil Brooks. The guy is cuban and is seldom seen without a cigar in his mouth. Now he can't enjoy a fine cigar in his own establishment, and neither can my buddies and I. It's utterly absurd. It's a fnuckin Jazz club. People have cigarettes and Cigars while watching Jazz and sipping coffee. It's what you do. If you have a problem with that, then don't show up. Prudes like that aren't wanted there anyways, they spoil the mood.

I stand firm by my stance. I quit smoking cigarettes last year because, yes, it is a stupid habit, but people who are addicted need their smoke.

It's ruined businesses like venues, bars, Jazz clubs, etc. It's like Eddie Izzard once said, "No smoking in bars and soon no drinking and no talking."

It's insanity.

[Garbage Pail Kid]

Plexiglass. Problem solved.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

I used to go to a local Jazz club run by a very famous Jazz drummer named Cecil Brooks. The guy is cuban and is seldom seen without a cigar in his mouth. Now he can't enjoy a fine cigar in his own establishment, and neither can my buddies and I. It's utterly absurd. It's a fnuckin Jazz club. People have cigarettes and Cigars while watching Jazz and sipping coffee. It's what you do. If you have a problem with that, then don't show up. Prudes like that aren't wanted there anyways, they spoil the mood.

I stand firm by my stance. I quit smoking cigarettes last year because, yes, it is a stupid habit, but people who are addicted need their smoke.

It's ruined businesses like venues, bars, Jazz clubs, etc. It's like Eddie Izzard once said, "No smoking in bars and soon no drinking and no talking."

It's insanity.

There's ways around the bans if the establishment owners took half a second and rubbed a couple brain cells together.

[Theory?]

Jersey wrote a very constraining law that unlike the NYC workaround I just mentioned, is hard to work through. It pretty much says "no smoking, period. We catch a smoker in your establishment, and it's game over. No three strikes, nothing like that."

Additionally, NJ raised the buying age to 19.

[Hannah]

Meh, I still don't think it's a problem. Bars kept doing great business after smoking was banned in Ottawa and Halifax, and apparently Vancouver is in the process of following suit. Of course, it probably helps that non-smokers vastly outnumber smokers in the latter city, but still. It's really nice being able to go out for an evening and not come back stinking -- the smell always clings to my hair and makes me feel filthy -- and I'm rather fond of being able to breathe freely too. I didn't bother going to bars or clubs before the ban, so... yeah. As far as I can tell, they didn't lose any customers, they gained a bunch of people like me, and everything changed for the better.

[Jabrwock]

There was an article on CBC a while back (have to go look) about a study that said an unintended consequence of the smoking bans was that there was now a thick cloud of cigarette smoke outside the door, instead of spread out over the whole smoking section, as people tried to huddle around the door, especially in the wintertime.

A bar here in S'toon tried to use an old school bus parked beside the bar as a "smoking hut", but got busted because you could take your drinks into it and it had chairs and tables... even though no servers would go in there... shows how stupid the polis are who come up with these laws.

[ZippyDSMlee]

heres a thought if you do not like the smoke smell/otherwise do not go to that bar....OMG freedom its such a hassle!!!!!!

[Jabrwock]

heres a thought if you do not like the smoke smell/otherwise do not go to that bar....OMG freedom its such a hassle!!!!!!
Well, the argument put forth up here was it was an "occupational health & safety" issue, since the servers didn't really have a choice... But then they went and did stupid stuff, like fining over the bus, which didn't have any bar staff inside it...

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

Well, like I said, I'm not a smoker, I don't like the smell of it (I get nausiated). I just don't go to the bars, got tired of that scene in my 20's. If I want to hang out with friends, I do that without needing to go to a bar. If I want to meet a woman, the bar scene just isn't the right setting for me. The alcohol tends to be overpriced or only has American craptastic beers, and it's a bit too noisy for me. All in all, I just would rather avoid them. So, people smoking or not smoking in bars doesn't affect me. Making a law to control such things does stifle people's freedoms, something I wish the US would stop doing.

[ZippyDSMlee]

Well, the argument put forth up here was it was an "occupational health & safety" issue, since the servers didn't really have a choice... But then they went and did stupid stuff, like fining over the bus, which didn't have any bar staff inside it...

so then next bar will stop having alcohol because of violent drunks or better yet a sound control meter to protect peoples ear from the noise and the bar closes when it goes off,its a bar theres goign to be drinking and flirting and smoking with the possibility of bad music if you don't like that then don't go there or work there....who would of thought freedom works...LOL

[Hannah]

so then next bar will stop having alcohol because of violent drunks or better yet a sound control meter to protect peoples ear from the noise and the bar closes when it goes off,its a bar theres goign to be drinking and flirting and smoking with the possibility of bad music if you don't like that then don't go there or work there....who would of thought freedom works...LOL

Er... you forget that with smoking, there's a demonstrable negative effect on people who just happen to be in the same room/general area. It's not just a matter of not liking the smell (though that certainly plays a role in my case), it's a matter of not wanting to get cancer. If other people want to give themselves cancer, they're welcome to do so, but NOT in the presence of people (like me!) who are rather fond of their lungs. I mean, I don't have a problem with people drinking and doing drugs, but only when they're only hurting themselves and not random bystanders.

Also, while I wouldn't have a problem with bars just catering to smokers or non-smokers, 99% of bars were under the impression that they would lose business if a smoking ban came into effect. As it turned out, they were wrong, but... that attitude meant that there was literally nowhere for a non-smoker (or a bartender who didn't want cancer) to go. Also, people go to bars to drink. That's the whole point of a bar. Sure, people do other stuff there too, but alcohol is still, by definition, the intended purpose of the establishment. That's why you can't be like "zomg, they're going to ban drinking next!" because that's stupid. Similarly, they won't ban music or other crap either unless it suddenly starts harming the staff/customers against their will.

[Jabrwock]

so then next bar will stop having alcohol because of violent drunks or better yet a sound control meter to protect peoples ear from the noise and the bar closes when it goes off,its a bar theres goign to be drinking and flirting and smoking with the possibility of bad music if you don't like that then don't go there or work there....who would of thought freedom works...LOLActually, bar staff could complain under the OHS act if the bar didn't provide them with a) earplugs for the noise, and b) security to deal with violent drunks.

Unless there was some non-intrusive tech that could provide servers with the ability to speak to customers, but still filter out the cigarette smoke, then banning smoking indoors is the way to go.

I don't agree with patio bans though, they're just dumb.

[dutch_gamer]

"Coffee shops will be treated in the same manner as other catering businesses. They will be smoke-free," Prime Minister Jan Peter Balkenende told NOS television.

"It would have been wrong to move towards a smoke-free catering industry and then make an exception for coffee shops. People would not have understood that."

That makes no sense. The whole point of coffee shops is smoking weed. I am no smoker myself, but I see no reason for such a ban in a coffee shop. When I enter a coffee shop, I should expect people to be smoking. It is different in a bar, because a bar is a place where you can drink alcohol 'socially". A coffee shop is about nothing else but weed.

This seems nothing more than a scheme of the Christian parties to get around legalized soft drugs legislation. It is no secret that they are against legalized soft drugs. And this way they can "kill" it. Where would someone rather have someone smoking their weed, inside the coffee shop or in front of the shop or somewhere else outside? I much rather have them somewhere inside, so they don't feel the need to harass someone. I am not saying they will harass someone. But hanging outside in groups, does tend to lead to such things.It is also rather pathetic that you see people smoke outside in their lunch breaks, because they are no longer being allowed to smoke somewhere inside. I see this a lot when I go to any mall.

Oh and this draconian law has a lot to do with "Christian values" and probably with the European Union. I am of the opinion that the EU wants nothing more but unified laws, all of them. That is a reason why I will never consider myself a European. I am Dutch and proud of it. And the EU really needs to stop telling us what we can and can't do. Another problem with our government nowadays, is that they want to control every aspect of our lives. They constantly whine about what we eat and drink. Last time I checked, we all lived in a democracy. If someone likes eating whatever he/she wants, let them, for Pete's sake.

[KN]

Only I am allowed to Dutch >.> <.<

You are as of now Belgian.

But yah, Happy Christian Values Man really needs to go. Someone needs to point out that a party that represents a religion only 30% of the country practices should not head the government, ever.

[ZippyDSMlee]

Hannah/Jack

again if you dont like it don't be there and if it the place is empty it will close and another place can chose to not to have it..there is a balance to it and forcing stupid laws to protect stupid people from themselves is stupid.

[Hannah]

Hannah/Jack

again if you dont like it don't be there and if it the place is empty it will close and another place can chose to not to have it..there is a balance to it and forcing stupid laws to protect stupid people from themselves is stupid.

But... I could just as easily say "If you don't like not being able to smoke there, don't go" :p

My right to clean air trumps your right to screw up your own body. I honestly don't care what smokers do to themselves, I just don't like it when they're allowed to do the same thing to me. Why should I have to go elsewhere when somebody is actively filling the air with poison?

[ZippyDSMlee]

But... I could just as easily say "If you don't like not being able to smoke there, don't go" :p

My right to clean air trumps your right to screw up your own body. I honestly don't care what smokers do to themselves, I just don't like it when they're allowed to do the same thing to me. Why should I have to go elsewhere when somebody is actively filling the air with poison?

A bars right to decide if it is smoking or not trumps your right to demand clean air within said bad..... nothing like PC nazi logic "if you force insurance onto cars it will lower car usage because some people can not afford them and insurance".

bah I cant even get a simple motor bike/street legal 4 wheeler to get into town with because they want a ton of extra mostly needless crap onto it....ggrrrrr if I wan not a worry wort I would do like the country bumpkins and wing it *L*

[Theory?]

But... I could just as easily say "If you don't like not being able to smoke there, don't go" :p

My right to clean air trumps your right to screw up your own body. I honestly don't care what smokers do to themselves, I just don't like it when they're allowed to do the same thing to me. Why should I have to go elsewhere when somebody is actively filling the air with poison?

Zippy makes a point. It's not YOUR bar. If you don't want to smell like smoke, open your own no smoking bar.

Otherwise, deal with it.

[Hannah]

A bars right to decide if it is smoking or not trumps your right to demand clean air within said bad..... nothing like PC nazi logic "if you force insurance onto cars it will lower car usage because some people can not afford them and insurance".

bah I cant even get a simple motor bike/street legal 4 wheeler to get into town with because they want a ton of extra mostly needless crap onto it....ggrrrrr if I wan not a worry wort I would do like the country bumpkins and wing it *L*

We're not talking about something that's just annoying, we're talking about something that's actually a public health/safety problem. Our society works because a person's right to avoid unwanted harm is placed way above other people's right to knowingly harm others. You'd want the government to step in if bars/other establishments allowed unsavoury types to fill the air with other poisonous gases, wouldn't you? They're pretty much the only ones who can stop that kind of thing, and at least in Canada, we're already paying a hell of a lot in tax dollars for the care of people with smoking-related illnesses.

[Theory?]

We're not talking about something that's just annoying, we're talking about something that's actually a public health/safety problem. Our society works because a person's right to avoid unwanted harm is placed way above other people's right to knowingly harm others. You'd want the government to step in if bars/other establishments allowed unsavoury types to fill the air with other poisonous gases, wouldn't you? They're pretty much the only ones who can stop that kind of thing, and at least in Canada, we're already paying a hell of a lot in tax dollars for the care of people with smoking-related illnesses.

I really don't understand how this one simple fact isn't penetrating your skull.

ITS

A

BAR!

A BAR FOR GOD'S SAKE!

It's a sleazy downtown blue-collar setting where overweight pigs go to get away from their wives. They drink, they smoke, and they forget about the never-ending misery that is their lives. They throw down drinks to forget their awful day at work, and they smoke to ease the tension of facing their blank hearts every time they look in the mirror. I don't really know what you expect from a setting like this, but clean air certainly doesn't jive.

This isn't the ****ing mall here, it's a bar.

[Hannah]

I really don't understand how this one simple fact isn't penetrating your skull.

ITS

A

BAR!

A BAR FOR GOD'S SAKE!

It's a sleazy downtown blue-collar setting where overweight pigs go to get away from their wives. They drink, they smoke, and they forget about the never-ending misery that is their lives. They throw down drinks to forget their awful day at work, and they smoke to ease the tension of facing their blank hearts every time they look in the mirror. I don't really know what you expect from a setting like this, but clean air certainly doesn't jive.

This isn't the ****ing mall here, it's a bar.

Bars aren't like that here, or in any city that I've lived in :p They're full of people drinking and listening to music and socializing, but the smokers go outside when they need their fix.

Incidentally, I live in a city where only 13.6% of people aged 15 or older smoke. It's just not socially acceptable here, I guess, and certainly not part of the bar experience.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

A bars right to decide if it is smoking or not trumps your right to demand clean air within said bad.....

Gotta agree with that one. It is a private establishment. The government shouldn't be meddling with them unless it is something illegal. And smoking isn't illegal (yet).

We're not talking about something that's just annoying, we're talking about something that's actually a public health/safety problem.

The problem is, the cases to support the notion of second hand smoke are rather weak. They exist, sure -- but they can be torn apart. The case for if second-hand smoke actually is or isn't damaging at the levels found in a bar is still heavily debated and solid research doesn't really back the claim. Second-hand smoke needs an insane amount of smoke in the room, akin to the building being lit on fire if memory serves, to really have lasting impact. Sure, there's always the chance that the smaller quantities in the air found in bars could affect you, but they are slim, unfortunately.

So, this ruling does become less of a public health hazard, and more of a personal preference decision. It is people who don't like smoking wanting smoking gone -- prohibition of sorts against tobacco smoke. I don't like tobacco smoke, and I simply elect not to get into areas where it is prominent. I'm all for the government controlling government facilities and public locations, not fond of them controlling private organizations and their right to decide what is and isn't permitted within their establishments (legally).

[ZippyDSMlee]

We're not talking about something that's just annoying, we're talking about something that's actually a public health/safety problem. Our society works because a person's right to avoid unwanted harm is placed way above other people's right to knowingly harm others. You'd want the government to step in if bars/other establishments allowed unsavoury types to fill the air with other poisonous gases, wouldn't you? They're pretty much the only ones who can stop that kind of thing, and at least in Canada, we're already paying a hell of a lot in tax dollars for the care of people with smoking-related illnesses.

I am sorry but stupid law states you have to be smoke free in order to have a smoking section thats misses the point of a bars right to be smoke free and a persons right to say "I will go to another bar" and force that bar to adapt or die its the bars right to do this not the governments right to decide smoking is the great evil and should be baned like porn and booze.

Again let me be clear its up to you to go into the bar and be assaulted by the smokers there if you do not like it take it else where the law of averages will force it to change or close on tis own goverment need not apply, and before you start whining about worker rights its their choice to work there they don't have to if they don't want to this is where PCisim is broken.

Besides pollution dose more damage to you (2nd hand wise)than smoking , my god are they goign to ban incense next its fumes/smoke BAN IT BAN IT!!!!!

>>

there are some things that will simply work them selfs out as a city gets more health focused bar will have to start catering better to suit them thus change will happen on its own, by forcing these rules you damage the industry like 200K+ testing on custom built street vehicles because each custom is a new "vehicle" it has to be uniquely tested thus damaging a sub set of custom shops most family based(Ca msotly but I ehar other states are as bad), there is a time where regulation becomes pompous and oxymoronic,there should be no need to regulate smoking bars and restruants its the ones that want a clean air section that need that regulation.

I dont smoke at the same time I don't mind it cars can be just as bad so meh.

[Jabrwock]

Besides pollution dose more damage to you (2nd hand wise)than smoking , my god are they goign to ban incense next its fumes/smoke BAN IT BAN IT!!!!!

>>Running cars indoors without massive fan systems was banned a long time ago. Next! ;)

[seductivpancakes]

I really don't see whats so bad about smoking in bar. Like everyone says, no ones forcing you to drink, socialize or work there.

[Jabrwock]

I really don't see whats so bad about smoking in bar. Like everyone says, no ones forcing you to drink, socialize or work there.
Occupational Health & Safety laws usually state that it doesn't matter if you have a choice to work there or not, the business still has to protect you from work hazards, potential or otherwise.

Some laws allow, like the designated smoking rooms that servers don't go into, for fan systems, smoking on patios, etc. Saskatchewan doesn't, but it hasn't been seriously challenged in court yet. Only one bar tried, and it dropped the case after it was found that the owner was dodging taxes, so he had bigger problems than a smoking ban violation fine...