Immigration bill dead?

[Yukimura]

hey, I saw some reports on line that apparently the new so called "immigration bill" ((who the **** are they kidding)) got killed or is in serious trouble. Is this true?

If so, one must wonder why the sudden change, word on the net was that the officies of major politicans have been getting hammered with complaints about the bill, but as I've not heard it on the MSM, and most of what I do hear is coming from Talk radio, I'm, needless to say, somewhat scepitcal.

On a side note, in case you didn't notice, i think that immigration bill was garbage.

ANyway, is there any confirmation on the bills fate?

[nightwng2000]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19089103/

[KN]

Fixed:


On a side note, in case you didn't notice, everyone and their mother thinks that immigration bill was garbage.



Ah yes, tis in trouble. Another nail in the coffin.

[Yukimura]

Good of you to help me out.

Still, with you I can never tell if your being sarcastic or not.

I'm just saying I didn't agree with the bill.

Thanks anyway for helping out with the info though.

ALso, thanks nightwing for the linky.

[weatherlight]

Immigration, what a wonderful thing. No offense but from what I have seen from the bill, it is not that bad. Its far better then the bills they have tried to pass in the past. I dont like the wall idea so much, but they have been proven to be effective in stopping people from entering/leaving an area.

The thing is illegal immigration needs to be stopped, and those found to have broken the law coming here illegally should not be provided a "free pass", putting them ahead of all the people who are going about it legally.

On both sides of my family my grandparents and great grandparents immigrated from else where. My grandfather on my dads side, spent more then a year with his mother and two siblings without a home waiting for the paperwork to clear so they could come over on an emergency visa. I feel no pity for others who can not wait their turn. Thats is not to say that I think that the current laws are perfect, but they are the law and they must be followed.

I just like that if I come back to Germany for my masters I will be able to apply for citizenship before I am done with my studies. And starting within the next couple of years Germany will allow adults to hold and apply for dual citizenship.

[Yukimura]

Immigration, what a wonderful thing. No offense but from what I have seen from the bill, it is not that bad. Its far better then the bills they have tried to pass in the past. I dont like the wall idea so much, but they have been proven to be effective in stopping people from entering/leaving an area.

The thing is illegal immigration needs to be stopped, and those found to have broken the law coming here illegally should not be provided a "free pass", putting them ahead of all the people who are going about it legally.

On both sides of my family my grandparents and great grandparents immigrated from else where. My grandfather on my dads side, spent more then a year with his mother and two siblings without a home waiting for the paperwork to clear so they could come over on an emergency visa. I feel no pity for others who can not wait their turn. Thats is not to say that I think that the current laws are perfect, but they are the law and they must be followed.

I just like that if I come back to Germany for my masters I will be able to apply for citizenship before I am done with my studies. And starting within the next couple of years Germany will allow adults to hold and apply for dual citizenship.

Don't get me wrong, but I am not against immigration, I'm against illegal immigration ,and after studing the bill for a while, i came to the conclusion that it's just amnesty dressed up as reform.

I don't want that. First I want them to secure and enforce the border laws, and then I want them to make it easier for people who want to legally aquire citizen ship to get it, rather then the current mess they have.

Thats all I'm saying

[weatherlight]

Don't get me wrong, but I am not against immigration, I'm against illegal immigration ,and after studing the bill for a while, i came to the conclusion that it's just amnesty dressed up as reform.

I don't want that. First I want them to secure and enforce the border laws, and then I want them to make it easier for people who want to legally aquire citizen ship to get it, rather then the current mess they have.

Thats all I'm saying
I agree, nothing pisses me off more then the idea of amnesty for these people, but its time we do something and not bicker about it for the next 20 years.

[Tollwutig]

What the vote yesterday did will practically kill the bill because now the Senate will now hold extended debate on the bill. This gives both extremes of both parties to attempt to Amend the bill to death.

Basically the Republicans will keep attempting to Amend the bill to make it stricter on enforcement and watering down the guest worker program, and the Democrats will attempt to water down the point system for letting new immigrants in.

All the while they will blame each other for trying to kill the bill.

Also with this test vote it is now apparent that there will be attempts to filibuster the bill in the Senate, and enough Senators don't like the bill enough to stop a filibuster.

While the bill isn't dead it could be considered to be in a persistent vegetative state with little chance of recovery.

[Demontestament]

Immigration, what a wonderful thing. No offense but from what I have seen from the bill, it is not that bad. Its far better then the bills they have tried to pass in the past. I dont like the wall idea so much, but they have been proven to be effective in stopping people from entering/leaving an area.

The thing is illegal immigration needs to be stopped, and those found to have broken the law coming here illegally should not be provided a "free pass", putting them ahead of all the people who are going about it legally.

On both sides of my family my grandparents and great grandparents immigrated from else where. My grandfather on my dads side, spent more then a year with his mother and two siblings without a home waiting for the paperwork to clear so they could come over on an emergency visa. I feel no pity for others who can not wait their turn. Thats is not to say that I think that the current laws are perfect, but they are the law and they must be followed.

I just like that if I come back to Germany for my masters I will be able to apply for citizenship before I am done with my studies. And starting within the next couple of years Germany will allow adults to hold and apply for dual citizenship.

You have read it right? It was nothing than a token bill to begin with. It in all honesty did nothing, but the politicans could say "Well we tried" if it was passed and failed in the real world. It would make it so if they wished to become citizens they would have to pay a small fee per family member, than a $5,000.00 fine, then register, go back to mexico, wait 8 to 11 years to hear if they were approved or not. Now tell me, what illegal family has 5k just laying around? They don't trust our government to begin with so why would they go back to Mexico to have a chance at being accepted as a citizen when they can just sit tight in america under the radar?

Then you have the "Guest worker" bull****, this in all means is just another word for "Legalised Slave Labor" it would allow them to work the jobs they are working now (no increase in wages mind you) and then go back home when it expires and apply for a new one. Thus we still have the whole "Doing jobs Americans refuse to do" swing line in play, it is just now they are able to come over legally and work for **** wages because they are not citizens thus not entitled to minimum wage.

The bill was crap, just like everything else the government tries to put out on immigration. I mean the bill was passed, where the **** is our fence?

[KN]

While the bill isn't dead it could be considered to be in a persistent vegetative state with little chance of recovery.

THE BILL HAS A RIGHT TO LIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIVE! LIIIIIIIIIVE :(

;p

[Garbage Pail Kid]

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSN0722175120070608

Looks like they're trying to revive it.

[ZippyDSMlee]

So why not fix the boarder,fix the immigration bill where you process more people,start processing them any criminal's found will be automatically tossed, put a 10K a head tax on the ones that are here illegally, its at least a way to balance it all out.

10K times 10milloin(or was the number billion) is what?

point is we got them lets keep them and garnish thier wages for a few years add a 10% illicit imagration tax to their wages or they can pay it up front.

that with protecting the border and refinign the immgration system things should get better.

[weatherlight]

You have read it right? It was nothing than a token bill to begin with. It in all honesty did nothing, but the politicans could say "Well we tried" if it was passed and failed in the real world. It would make it so if they wished to become citizens they would have to pay a small fee per family member, than a $5,000.00 fine, then register, go back to mexico, wait 8 to 11 years to hear if they were approved or not. Now tell me, what illegal family has 5k just laying around? They don't trust our government to begin with so why would they go back to Mexico to have a chance at being accepted as a citizen when they can just sit tight in america under the radar?

Then you have the "Guest worker" bull****, this in all means is just another word for "Legalised Slave Labor" it would allow them to work the jobs they are working now (no increase in wages mind you) and then go back home when it expires and apply for a new one. Thus we still have the whole "Doing jobs Americans refuse to do" swing line in play, it is just now they are able to come over legally and work for **** wages because they are not citizens thus not entitled to minimum wage.

The bill was crap, just like everything else the government tries to put out on immigration. I mean the bill was passed, where the **** is our fence?
Maybe you should read it because you are blowing what it’s proposing out of proportion like every other news point that does not like the idea that a republican may be able to make a sensible bill on immigration.
$4000 fine after they get their Z visa to become citizens, $1000 to get their Z visa. They will not be deported under their Z visa, merely if it runs out they would be required to return to Mexico. They would be required to wait on the list like every other person wanting citizenship. Would you prefer that we let them skip the list of people doing this legally? It is my understanding that they are also attempting to fix the wait list, reducing the wait, but how can they do this without first stopping the massive flow of illegal immigration.
Now I haven’t read anything about how much they would be paid, but quite frankly if you think that all Americans get paid minimum wage you are greatly mistaken. What is it now $6.50 or $7.25 per hour? The minimum wage is a ****ing joke, what it means is people who worked at a minimum wage job for 4 years are now making the same as people who just started. They don’t get a pay increase, it punishes them for having worked. Now the prices of everything gets raised to pay for this increase in wages, now there are just more people who are barely making it. Good Job you found the solution.
Now more about minimum wage take the agricultural field or seasonal work, they are only required to pay around $4 per hour (in Wisconsin). Where do a large number of the illegal’s work? They are making the same in this field as American that was doing the job. Claiming these are jobs that no American will work is also a fallacy because I have worked for these “**** wages”. While all these people are out there working you got a bunch of lazy ass bums sitting in the city collecting their welfare checks because they don’t want to actually to work.
Now I hope that in ideal land everything is peachy fine and dandy, but how about you step back into reality and actually try and solve this problem instead, What would you do the solve the immigration problem? Because it is so easy for people to throw **** at others ideas instead of actually trying to fix the problem.

[ZippyDSMlee]

Maybe you should read it because you are blowing what it’s proposing out of proportion like every other news point that does not like the idea that a republican may be able to make a sensible bill on immigration.
$4000 fine after they get their Z visa to become citizens, $1000 to get their Z visa. They will not be deported under their Z visa, merely if it runs out they would be required to return to Mexico. They would be required to wait on the list like every other person wanting citizenship. Would you prefer that we let them skip the list of people doing this legally? It is my understanding that they are also attempting to fix the wait list, reducing the wait, but how can they do this without first stopping the massive flow of illegal immigration.
Now I haven’t read anything about how much they would be paid, but quite frankly if you think that all Americans get paid minimum wage you are greatly mistaken. What is it now $6.50 or $7.25 per hour? The minimum wage is a ****ing joke, what it means is people who worked at a minimum wage job for 4 years are now making the same as people who just started. They don’t get a pay increase, it punishes them for having worked. Now the prices of everything gets raised to pay for this increase in wages, now there are just more people who are barely making it. Good Job you found the solution.
Now more about minimum wage take the agricultural field or seasonal work, they are only required to pay around $4 per hour (in Wisconsin). Where do a large number of the illegal’s work? They are making the same in this field as American that was doing the job. Claiming these are jobs that no American will work is also a fallacy because I have worked for these “**** wages”. While all these people are out there working you got a bunch of lazy ass bums sitting in the city collecting their welfare checks because they don’t want to actually to work.
Now I hope that in ideal land everything is peachy fine and dandy, but how about you step back into reality and actually try and solve this problem instead, What would you do the solve the immigration problem? Because it is so easy for people to throw **** at others ideas instead of actually trying to fix the problem.

5-10k a head and start processing them,moving them to a temp immigrant status is a very possliable and doable thing,however what good is it if you give them a "pass" and do not fix the boarder or the immigration system that let all this happen?

Or I should say with doing nothing more than giving them a temp visa is giving them a pass.

[weatherlight]

5-10k a head and start processing them,moving them to a temp immigrant status is a very possliable and doable thing,however what good is it if you give them a "pass" and do not fix the boarder or the immigration system that let all this happen?

Or I should say with doing nothing more than giving them a temp visa is giving them a pass.
Thats the thing with this bill is it allows them to work, while securing the border. And gives the steps needed to allow for us to change the policies in place. I agree this bill and nothing more would just give us a pass and a wall. More needs to be done, but this is a start.

[ZippyDSMlee]

Thats the thing with this bill is it allows them to work, while securing the border. And gives the steps needed to allow for us to change the policies in place. I agree this bill and nothing more would just give us a pass and a wall. More needs to be done, but this is a start.

from past experiences at least on this more is never done so is given them a pass like in 85 moving forward any, and if they do pass it with some form of boarder fixing thing they can simply not funded it like everythign else they do not like so where dose it all end or start?

[Tollwutig]

Maybe you should read it because you are blowing what it’s proposing out of proportion like every other news point that does not like the idea that a republican may be able to make a sensible bill on immigration.
$4000 fine after they get their Z visa to become citizens, $1000 to get their Z visa. They will not be deported under their Z visa, merely if it runs out they would be required to return to Mexico.

And that right there should be enough to tell you what a hoax of a bill this is. What immigrant who has already skipped the legal system to get here is going to pay $5k to stay here and quite possibly lose their job?

You see this ONLY works if all the current and future illegal immigrants get a Z Visa and work legally, else those who do get the Z Visa are just going to lose their job because the company would then be required to pay them a minimum wage. Those who don't get the Z Visa will be able to under bid those with for lower than minimum wage since they won't be paying any fines or taxes.


Also this bill in it's entirety is over 1000 pages and not all of it has been released to the public. So no one except possibly some Senator aids have read the entire thing, as I doubt any Senators have read it in it's entirety.

[Demontestament]

Maybe you should read it because you are blowing what it’s proposing out of proportion like every other news point that does not like the idea that a republican may be able to make a sensible bill on immigration.
$4000 fine after they get their Z visa to become citizens, $1000 to get their Z visa. They will not be deported under their Z visa, merely if it runs out they would be required to return to Mexico. They would be required to wait on the list like every other person wanting citizenship. Would you prefer that we let them skip the list of people doing this legally? It is my understanding that they are also attempting to fix the wait list, reducing the wait, but how can they do this without first stopping the massive flow of illegal immigration.
Now I haven’t read anything about how much they would be paid, but quite frankly if you think that all Americans get paid minimum wage you are greatly mistaken. What is it now $6.50 or $7.25 per hour? The minimum wage is a ****ing joke, what it means is people who worked at a minimum wage job for 4 years are now making the same as people who just started. They don’t get a pay increase, it punishes them for having worked. Now the prices of everything gets raised to pay for this increase in wages, now there are just more people who are barely making it. Good Job you found the solution.
Now more about minimum wage take the agricultural field or seasonal work, they are only required to pay around $4 per hour (in Wisconsin). Where do a large number of the illegal’s work? They are making the same in this field as American that was doing the job. Claiming these are jobs that no American will work is also a fallacy because I have worked for these “**** wages”. While all these people are out there working you got a bunch of lazy ass bums sitting in the city collecting their welfare checks because they don’t want to actually to work.
Now I hope that in ideal land everything is peachy fine and dandy, but how about you step back into reality and actually try and solve this problem instead, What would you do the solve the immigration problem? Because it is so easy for people to throw **** at others ideas instead of actually trying to fix the problem.

What would I do? You make it sound like I am for any ****tard who comes over illegally, in fact I hate the ****ers who break the law yet are not punished for it. My post was refering to the bill is just some bull**** from our government. Just like everything else it has tried to put out these past few years when it comes to immigration. Yes I agree Minimum wage is bull****, I too as well as probably everyone else who posts on this board has worked for or is currently working for the bull**** minimum wage. I know all to well the bull**** of it, but when you have companies paying people $1.50 - $2.00 an hour because they are illegal it is bull****. That is one reason why nothing will ever be done about the illegal problem. Big Business profits from it, the politicans are in the pockets of big business so in turn the government is not going to do something that is going to hurt the business or their pockets. The whole "Jobs Americans won't do" is bull****, like I have said many times, it is more of "Jobs Americans won't do for those **** wages" or "Jobs Americans on Welfare are too lasy to do" the term was originally spun by Former Mexican President Fox, then Bush started to use it.

Where do a large number of the illegal’s work? They are making the same in this field as American that was doing the job.

False, they are paid less because the companies can get away with it. Because they know that the illegals will not complain about it. I mean do you honestly think they are going to complain "They are paying me less because I am here Illegaly" yeah that is going to go over in their favor. There is nothing good in that bill it is all bull**** moonspeak to make people think the government is working to fix this problem. When they honestly have no intent on doing so when it is this close to the elections. Enforce the law, you lose the mexican vote. Give Amnistety you lose everyone elses vote. Double Edged sword the politicans can't afford to use.

$4000 fine after they get their Z visa to become citizens, $1000 to get their Z visa. They will not be deported under their Z visa, merely if it runs out they would be required to return to Mexico. They would be required to wait on the list like every other person wanting citizenship.

And you don't see the problem here? What illegal have 4k per head for fines, and another 1k per head for the Visa? They don't trust our government to begin with, no way in hell someone who is flying under the radar right now is going to go with this bill, give a **** load of money just to get a Visa. Let me use the people who live down the street from me. They are illegal, they claim to be and are proud of it. There are the husband and wife and their five children. Now under the law the bill would try to enforce that would be 28k in fines and another 7k for the visas, do you really think they have 35k laying around to spend. Or do you really think they will be willing to give 35k to a government they hate and do not trust? Or would they rather continue to fly under the radar untouched knowing there are a **** load of Mexican Rights groups willing to defend them at the drop of a hat.

The bill is flawed, it is just a token feel good smokescreen to make the general populace think that the government is trying to fix the problem. When nothing will actually get done because nobody wants to lose votes.

[steelcobra]

Not everyone necessarily starts at minimum wage. My starting wage at Target was 6.50, and I made more than 8 when I left. And at that point new hires were getting 7.50. So, not every company pays the minimum, just the ****ty ones like Wal-Mart who depend on high turnover rates.

[weatherlight]

If you are going to shorten what I say get the ****ing context right.

This bill will give those wanting to become citizens a chance, to fix their wrong doings.

[steelcobra]

That's the thing. If what they wanted was citizenship, they could have gone the official way just like everyone else. Instead, they decided to jump the border and work for (what in US dollars is) change. Now you're saying that lawbreakers should be given the same chance as someone who chose the hard right over the easy wrong.

[weatherlight]

That's the thing. If what they wanted was citizenship, they could have gone the official way just like everyone else. Instead, they decided to jump the border and work for (what in US dollars is) change. Now you're saying that lawbreakers should be given the same chance as someone who chose the hard right over the easy wrong.
You apparently did not read what I wrote before.

[steelcobra]

When somebody who read Wizard & Glass (http://www.amazon.com/Wizard-Glass-Dark-Tower-Stephen/dp/0340829788/ref=sr_1_1/002-9331231-5704047?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1181578799&sr=8-1) in 6 hours straight glosses over your post, you may need to think about being concise and accurate, not attempting an extreme degree of eloquence in order to attempt the execution of the line of thought you were originally attempting to convey.

[ZippyDSMlee]

And that right there should be enough to tell you what a hoax of a bill this is. What immigrant who has already skipped the legal system to get here is going to pay $5k to stay here and quite possibly lose their job?

You see this ONLY works if all the current and future illegal immigrants get a Z Visa and work legally, else those who do get the Z Visa are just going to lose their job because the company would then be required to pay them a minimum wage. Those who don't get the Z Visa will be able to under bid those with for lower than minimum wage since they won't be paying any fines or taxes.


Also this bill in it's entirety is over 1000 pages and not all of it has been released to the public. So no one except possibly some Senator aids have read the entire thing, as I doubt any Senators have read it in it's entirety.

its rather simple process them then garnish their wages if they don't like it they can leave.

[Tollwutig]

If you are going to shorten what I say get the ****ing context right.

This bill will give those wanting to become citizens a chance, to fix their wrong doings.



That's just it you don't need context as any illegal in his right mind is not going to pay $5k to become legal only to be kicked out of the country in 5 years, and have to re-apply.

This isn't a path to citizenship it is a path to being kicked out, and coming back and being kicked out again, oh and unless you actually have technical skills it is very unlikely that you'll get approved for citizenship.

Oh and the border security portion, does the same exact thing as the last border "fence" bill, it gives the Dept of Homeland Security discretionary funds to build a fence if they feel it's really necessary. So far no fences have been constructed to secure any of the border.

This is a feel good bill in order to pander for votes on both sides of the immigration debate, nothing more.

[ZippyDSMlee]

That's just it you don't need context as any illegal in his right mind is not going to pay $5k to become legal only to be kicked out of the country in 5 years, and have to re-apply.

This isn't a path to citizenship it is a path to being kicked out, and coming back and being kicked out again, oh and unless you actually have technical skills it is very unlikely that you'll get approved for citizenship.

Oh and the border security portion, does the same exact thing as the last border "fence" bill, it gives the Dept of Homeland Security discretionary funds to build a fence if they feel it's really necessary. So far no fences have been constructed to secure any of the border.

This is a feel good bill in order to pander for votes on both sides of the immigration debate, nothing more.

pretty much its all a circle jerk to make them look good they need to do something thats set in stone and it get done.

making them pay is rather easy once processed they have a choice wages garnished or being tossed out.

[Demontestament]

pretty much its all a circle jerk to make them look good they need to do something thats set in stone and it get done.

making them pay is rather easy once processed they have a choice wages garnished or being tossed out.

See the problem is we have laws right now that say to toss them out, and they are barely enforced. And if they know their wages are going to be garnished they are just going to sit tight where they are under the radar.

[ZippyDSMlee]

See the problem is we have laws right now that say to toss them out, and they are barely enforced. And if they know their wages are going to be garnished they are just going to sit tight where they are under the radar.

LOL
Processing=All illegals are found by any means and added to the registry criminals are removed from the country everyone else has a choice garnished wages,paying up front or being returned to their country.