40 years: Anniversary of 1967 War

[Jabrwock]

So, it's been 40 years since the Arab nations tried to wipe Israel off the map, but they failed miserably. 40 years since Israel showed that it stand on it's own as a country (although with a lot of indirect help from the US). 40 years since Israel occupied Palestine, and it's not really gained much since other than a lot of dead on both sides.

Has any progress been made? Or has it mostly been downhill?

[Grahamr]

Well, no one really knows.

One thing's for sure...I don't think the Jews will ever leave that land. After being on the receiving end of the Holocaust and other atrocities before then, they now proceed to brutally massacre anyone who threatens their security.

Their just never going to budge. But, on the other hand....Their the only nation in the middle east with democracy, good human rights, and their the only nation where women don't have to wear veils or get raped for no reason.

to wipe Israel off the map

Direct qoute from the president of Iran??:)

[Thefremen]

I'd say it's a bit better, and at least noone there has learned that if you have the power to destroy a thing you control that thing, and he who controls the spice controls the universe.

[Jabrwock]

Direct qoute from the president of Iran??:)Heh, pretty much. A little bit of history repeating. Egypt, Jordan, Syria, etc didn't recognize Israel's right to exist in the 60's either. Although the tensions between Palestinian & Israeli weren't there. It was Israel vs. the Arab states, not Palestinians. It was only after the Occupation that it became Isael vs. the Palestinians.

Right now they reluctantly accept them as a neighbor, but only because they know they can't do anything about it.

[Demontestament]

No progress has been made, both sides are still trying to wipe eachother off the ****ing map. And I ****ing hate how everyone sides with Israil all the ****ing time. They are just as guilty of crimes against humanity as Arab Nations are. Why we are able to turna blind eye when they kill innocent people and yet raise a fuss when the Arab nations do it makes my brain hurt.

[penarestel]

Why we are able to turna blind eye when they kill innocent people and yet raise a fuss when the Arab nations do it makes my brain hurt.

They're God's Chosen People™

[steelcobra]

No progress has been made, both sides are still trying to wipe eachother off the ****ing map. And I ****ing hate how everyone sides with Israil all the ****ing time. They are just as guilty of crimes against humanity as Arab Nations are. Why we are able to turna blind eye when they kill innocent people and yet raise a fuss when the Arab nations do it makes my brain hurt.

Because 6 million of them died in WWII?

[Demontestament]

Because 6 million of them died in WWII?

So they get 6million mulligans or something?

[steelcobra]

So they get 6million mulligans or something?

I was just stating the biggest reason people see them as the good guys.

[Demontestament]

I was just stating the biggest reason people see them as the good guys.

I understood what you meant :D. I was just wondering why having something bad happen to them automatically makes them the good guy.

[Theory?]

The other day was the 40th Anniversary of Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Heart's Club Band.

[Jabrwock]

I understood what you meant :D. I was just wondering why having something bad happen to them automatically makes them the good guy.
Classic story. Main character gets beaten up, family killed, property taken, blah blah. Goes on to slaughter thousands of enemies, and is hailed as a hero, even if he went OTT.

[bayushisan]

Its important to note that Israel, Jerusalem, and the Jewish people have been the center of this kind of violence for better than two thousand years. Babylon, Persia, Rome, the Crusades, the six day war, the holocaust; all of these events have all been indicative of a pattern of attempts to erase the Jews from the pages of history.

Right now the only realy ally Israel has is the United States. Europe and the Arab nations have tried to bring sanctions against them for the simple act of defending themselves. Palestinians fire rockets over the border, Israeli forces counter attack and somehow its Israel's fault and they should give in to the demands of terrorists. At least that's the pattern that I've seen.

It's an interesting time in history to be sure. Makes you wonder what'll happen next year with the 60th aniversy of Israel becoming a nation again.

[Jabrwock]

I'm sure Israel forcibly occupying someone else's country has NOTHING to do with it... :rolleyes:

Prior to 1967, Palestinians couldn't care less about what Israel wanted, or what Egypt wanted. Israel used the Egyptian invasion as an excuse for a land grab, and is now pissy that the people they've forcibly ruled over for 40 years are fighting back.

**** if it was people rebelling against Soviet Russia ruling them with an iron fist, they'd be labelled as "freedom fighters"... ****ing hypocracy...

[bayushisan]

Except that there was no Palestine prior to 142 A.D. when the Roman (don't remember if he was a general or emperor) Hadrian renamed Judea into Palestine. He did that to try and break the spirit of the Jewish people, whom he was trying to eradicate.

There's also the problem of the fact that the Palestinians attack civilian targets from civilian areas. Unfortunately people who aren't even involved in the conflict get caught in the crossfire that way. The whole blowing yourself in a public place to kill as many people as possible thing is another problem.

From the perspective of Israel, and to a large extent the evengelical community as well, they (the Israelis) are taking back the land given to them by God in the time of their ancestors.

[Jabrwock]

Except that there was no Palestine prior to 142 A.D. when the Roman (don't remember if he was a general or emperor) Hadrian renamed Judea into Palestine. He did that to try and break the spirit of the Jewish people, whom he was trying to eradicate. So stuff that happened 2,000 years ago is an excuse for revenge now? That's the saddest argument I've heard yet. With that logic, Italy owns Europe, and everyone else should bow down to their authoritai. And all non-Aboriginals should GTFO of America... And America should GTFO out of Iraq, it's clearly Ottoman Empire territory...

There's also the problem of the fact that the Palestinians attack civilian targets from civilian areas. Unfortunately people who aren't even involved in the conflict get caught in the crossfire that way. The whole blowing yourself in a public place to kill as many people as possible thing is another problem.So some suicide bomber is the reason for illegal settlements (and I'm talking illegal under ISRAELI law, they've admitted as much themselves)? I take it back, THAT is the stupidest argument I've heard yet.

From the perspective of Israel, and to a large extent the evengelical community as well, they (the Israelis) are taking back the land given to them by God in the time of their ancestors.Funny, that's the same logic the crusaders used... Except they were appropriating it for the "Real" Christians, not those heathenistic losers who refused to accept Jesus and remain stuck in the "old" ways...

[bayushisan]

So stuff that happened 2,000 years ago is an excuse for revenge now? That's the saddest argument I've heard yet. With that logic, Italy owns Europe, and everyone else should bow down to their authoritai. And all non-Aboriginals should GTFO of America... And America should GTFO out of Iraq, it's clearly Ottoman Empire territory...

So some suicide bomber is the reason for illegal settlements (and I'm talking illegal under ISRAELI law, they've admitted as much themselves)? I take it back, THAT is the stupidest argument I've heard yet.

Funny, that's the same logic the crusaders used... Except they were appropriating it for the "Real" Christians, not those heathenistic losers who refused to accept Jesus and remain stuck in the "old" ways...

ANd if you ask Christians today about it, especially those in the evangelical community that have a working knowledge of their history and the history of the Jewish people, you'll find that most of them will say that the crusades were wrong.

[Jabrwock]

ANd if you ask Christians today about it, especially those in the evangelical community that have a working knowledge of their history and the history of the Jewish people, you'll find that most of them will say that the crusades were wrong.
So Christians slaughtering Arabs to steal their land in the name of God is WRONG, but Jews taking land from Arabs and then shooting them when they resist is ORDAINED BY GOD?

WTF dude?

And before you go on about suicide bombers again, or rocket attacks, let me remind you that the Israeli Army is sent in to protect the bulldozers and settlers who are busy building illegal settlements. These are the same settlers who shoot at Palestinians trying to get to their (the Palestinian) olive orchards, and then bitch when those same Palestinians, their lives destroyed, retaliate by trying to attack the settlement that was built on their land...

[bayushisan]

Then allow me to explain it this way. To the minds of the people of Israel, the land never left their ownership. That land has always been Israel, ans it always will be. The land promised to them by God during the time of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. And yes I am a proud supporter of Israel, of course that really shouldn't surprise anyone.

Oh before I forget let me remind you that the crusades were instituted by the Pope and were a by product of Catholic dogma. One sect of Christianity does not the norm make.

[Jabrwock]

Then allow me to explain it this way. To the minds of the people of Israel, the land never left their ownership. That land has always been Israel, ans it always will be. The land promised to them by God during the time of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. And yes I am a proud supporter of Israel, of course that really shouldn't surprise anyone.

Oh before I forget let me remind you that the crusades were instituted by the Pope and were a by product of Catholic dogma. One sect of Christianity does not the norm make.
Just so we're clear here. As long as God says it's ok, then you can leave a land for 2,000 years, come back, take some of it back, and then when it suits you, forcibly evict people from their homes, and then when they demand compensation, or just try to fight back, you tell them "GTFO, God says so". Oh, but only if it's Jews saying so...

Based on biblical references, Israel's 135 BC borders:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Early-Historical-Israel-Dan-Beersheba-Judea.png

So, when is it going to invade Jordan and take their land? Oh wait, it's much easier just to shoot and bulldoze Palestinians.

[Tollwutig]

Oh before I forget let me remind you that the crusades were instituted by the Pope and were a by product of Catholic dogma. One sect of Christianity does not the norm make.

Just to be clear the Crusades were instituted by the Pope, who at the time represented ALL Christianity, let me reiterate that ALL Christianity. Considering the Protestant Reformation didn't occur for another thousand years. Despite the historical re-writes Catholic Dogma actually dominated at the time of the crusades, and despite some disagreements on his authority the Eastern Orthodox still considered the Arch Bishop of Rome (i.e. The Pope) to be one of the four Pillars of the Church.

[Jabrwock]

Just to be clear the Crusades were instituted by the Pope, who at the time represented ALL Christianity, let me reiterate that ALL Christianity. Considering the Protestant Reformation didn't occur for another thousand years. Despite the historical re-writes Catholic Dogma actually dominated at the time of the crusades, and despite some disagreements on his authority the Eastern Orthodox still considered the Arch Bishop of Rome (i.e. The Pope) to be one of the four Pillars of the Church.
I guess Paul wasn't a True Christian™, after all the whole Catholic Church thing was HIS department. ;)

[Grahamr]

Because 6 million of them died in WWII?

Wrong!!

5million jews, 1million other people.

People forget that Gays, Commies, and general political adversity was sent to the camps as well.

[KN]

Then allow me to explain it this way. To the minds of the people of Israel, the land never left their ownership. That land has always been Israel, ans it always will be. The land promised to them by God during the time of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. And yes I am a proud supporter of Israel, of course that really shouldn't surprise anyone.

I place No True Scotsman in Defence Mode.

Well, guess what? Other people live there too. Sadly, the bible does not count as a land deed. They have to share. Even if those people are bat **** insane, they still have to share.

[Demontestament]

Then allow me to explain it this way. To the minds of the people of Israel, the land never left their ownership. That land has always been Israel, ans it always will be. The land promised to them by God during the time of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. And yes I am a proud supporter of Israel, of course that really shouldn't surprise anyone.

Of course you would support one side insane people killing innocents all the while damning the other side for doing the exact same thing. News flash ace, that land is holy ground to more than one ****ing religion, but by blowing the **** out of eachother you rape the holyness out of said land. I am not supprised that you would be a blind supporter of Israel, most christians are if you look at it. I mean I can't think of any reason other than to fight agaisnt the evil terrorist Muslims and since Allah is not the real God their claim to the land is invalid so it is ok for Israel to kill them and drive them out of Gods land. Why they can't both have their holy land there and share is beyond me, but in my eyes if you support either side you support the murder of innocents.

Just another War started by ignorance and religion.

[weatherlight]

I just want to interject, the pope did not start or sanction all of the crusades only a couple of them. A number of them were started by Greedy bishops and religious fanatics.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades

[Jabrwock]

Wrong!!

5million jews, 1million other people.

People forget that Gays, Commies, and general political adversity was sent to the camps as well.
Under the "axis"

5 mil Jews, 3-5 mil "undesirables" (including gypsis, the disabled, freemasons, gays, etc), 2.6 mil Soviet POWs, 3 mil Chinese

[Demontestament]

Under the "axis"

5 mil Jews, 3-5 mil "undesirables" (including gypsis, the disabled, freemasons, gays, etc), 2.6 mil Soviet POWs, 3 mil Chinese

And a partridge in a pear treeeeeee...... ok bad joke i know

[bayushisan]

Of course you would support one side insane people killing innocents all the while damning the other side for doing the exact same thing. News flash ace, that land is holy ground to more than one ****ing religion, but by blowing the **** out of eachother you rape the holyness out of said land. I am not supprised that you would be a blind supporter of Israel, most christians are if you look at it. I mean I can't think of any reason other than to fight agaisnt the evil terrorist Muslims and since Allah is not the real God their claim to the land is invalid so it is ok for Israel to kill them and drive them out of Gods land. Why they can't both have their holy land there and share is beyond me, but in my eyes if you support either side you support the murder of innocents.

Just another War started by ignorance and religion.

I really hate to be the one to break this to you but Islam and Allah are false doctrines.

The reason that they both can't dwell there peacefully is in large part due to the arab practice of hating and wanting to wipe out the Jewish people. Makes rather difficult to be friendly if your neighbors keep threatening to kill you and everyone you care about. There's also the fact that the conflict between the Jews and the Arabs goes all the way back to Isaac and Ishmael. Isaac was the chosen son, Ishmael wasn't; that resentment has lasted and festered for more than two thousand years. Just telling them that they have to get along is really going to get you nowhere. The Arab nations don't want to get along with Israel, they want to dominate and destroy it. So that they can take Jerusalem for themselves. Which is interesting because the Bible is very, VERY clear on the fate of those who attempt to take Jerusalem and the land given to the children of Israel. Doesn't end well let me tell you.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

I guess Paul wasn't a True Christian™, after all the whole Catholic Church thing was HIS department. ;)

Technically, the Roman Catholic Church view Peter as the first Pope, not Paul.

That said, for the rest of this -- there have been many people who, in the "name" of some religion or belief, have espoused and pushed forward all kinds of atrocities throughout history. That does not necessarily make these people representative of said beliefs, just that they claim to be representative for particular belief -- at any level within any religious organization. Much like how Jack Thompson claims to represent upholding the First Amendment, the protection of children, and a Christian. Just because he says he is, despite whatever his lawyer status is, does not make it necessarily so.

[Jabrwock]

And a partridge in a pear treeeeeee...... ok bad joke i know
You bugger, now I feel bad, because I laughed. ;)

Just another War started by ignorance and religion.Oh but see? It's ordained by God, so killing is ok. Any other religion or faction is totally wrong and sinful to kill in God's name, because they aren't True Christians™, but in the middle east, it's ok, because God said "Thou shalt kill, if thou art reclaiming thy deeded lands..." :rolleyes:

[Demontestament]

You bugger, now I feel bad, because I laughed. ;)

Oh but see? It's ordained by God, so killing is ok. Any other religion or faction is totally wrong and sinful to kill in God's name, because they aren't True Christians™, but in the middle east, it's ok, because God said "Thou shalt kill, if thou art reclaiming thy deeded lands..." :rolleyes:

I just want to come down and either tell us that the earth is either a PVE server or PVP so we can finally sort out this whole "Thou Shalt not Kill" ****.

[Jabrwock]

I just want to come down and either tell us that the earth is either a PVE server or PVP so we can finally sort out this whole "Thou Shalt not Kill" ****.
The Jews have it sorted out. They use the word "murder". As in "Thou shalt not murder". Allows for stuff like "killing if God told you to", "self-defense", etc. It's only in english translations where they change it to "Thou shalt not kill", and then have to come up with crazy extra rules like pennance...

[KN]

I really hate to be the one to break this to you but Islam and Allah are false doctrines.

The reason that they both can't dwell there peacefully is in large part due to the arab practice of hating and wanting to wipe out the Jewish people. Makes rather difficult to be friendly if your neighbors keep threatening to kill you and everyone you care about. There's also the fact that the conflict between the Jews and the Arabs goes all the way back to Isaac and Ishmael. Isaac was the chosen son, Ishmael wasn't; that resentment has lasted and festered for more than two thousand years. Just telling them that they have to get along is really going to get you nowhere. The Arab nations don't want to get along with Israel, they want to dominate and destroy it. So that they can take Jerusalem for themselves. Which is interesting because the Bible is very, VERY clear on the fate of those who attempt to take Jerusalem and the land given to the children of Israel. Doesn't end well let me tell you.

So muslims are less deserving of that land because their fairy tales are less 'true'?

[Jabrwock]

Sheesh, I look away for a second, and look what happens...

I really hate to be the one to break this to you but Islam and Allah are false doctrines. Funny, what was it you were saying about your faith being called a myth? Ah yes:And I say that calling my faith dangerous and a myth is utter bullcrap. Not to mention bigoted. Hello Mr. Bigot. Nice to meet you. I'm Mr. Kettle.

The reason that they both can't dwell there peacefully is in large part due to the arab practice of hating and wanting to wipe out the Jewish people.And Jews stealing Arab land and waving around a 2,000 year old deed makes it all better, yes?

Are you ready to surrender your land to the native-americans and go back to Europe? Because they were here first. Oh wait, I guess they worship false gods, so it's ok to ignore THEIR land claims... :rolleyes:

[Grahamr]

You know, i think the reason why people like israel so much is that it's the only true democracy in the middle east, where the people have a CHOICE instead of having to listen to some random faux deity who is more then willing to kill them if they choose not to. Also, women don't have to wear veils or get raped every ten seconds.

In Iran, Rape is how you say "Allah Akbar!"

Original meme: "In Japan, Rape is howw you say "Hello!". (Commenting on the pervasiveness of sexual violence in hentai.)

[Demontestament]

I really hate to be the one to break this to you but Islam and Allah are false doctrines.

:eek: My how very closed minded and moronic of you to say that. Now why exactly is it false? Ohhh that is right they are not Christin so whatever they believe is wrong and evil. :rolleyes:


The reason that they both can't dwell there peacefully is in large part due to the arab practice of hating and wanting to wipe out the Jewish people. Makes rather difficult to be friendly if your neighbors keep threatening to kill you and everyone you care about. There's also the fact that the conflict between the Jews and the Arabs goes all the way back to Isaac and Ishmael. Isaac was the chosen son, Ishmael wasn't; that resentment has lasted and festered for more than two thousand years. Just telling them that they have to get along is really going to get you nowhere. The Arab nations don't want to get along with Israel, they want to dominate and destroy it. So that they can take Jerusalem for themselves. Which is interesting because the Bible is very, VERY clear on the fate of those who attempt to take Jerusalem and the land given to the children of Israel. Doesn't end well let me tell you.

/clap Nice spin on making all Arab's look like Gun pointing Jew haters. It is only the extreme nut jobs like Makmood Amahamadinniniajad(yeah i know not the spelling) who want to wipe out the jewish. The Quran has as much power as the bible does, just because christians try to make it sound like a terrorist text doesn't mean it is. Oh and you just called God a false Doctrine, Allah is God, different name that is it. And trust me Israel would love to see the destruction of the Arab nations just as much as those wackos in the Arab nations would like to see Israel burn. It works both ways, they are murderers just like their enemy.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

So muslims are less deserving of that land because their fairy tales are less 'true'?

While I'm not overly thrilled with bayushisan's overly preachy bible-thumping ways, I'd appreciate it if there was a little less insult thrown in the direction of the Christian faith.

Honestly, the strong anti-Christian rhetoric I see coming from this forum (and this is in no way directed toward you KN, I am being very general here) makes me want to actually participate in this forum less than others. There are... tactful and considerate ways to present an argument without insulting someone's beliefs. Once again, I'm not fond of bayushisan's equally-offensive "pro Christian" rhetoric either. However, taking an antagonistic approach toward a discussion will almost never end up civil. For a discussion to really be of any "quality", ideas should be presented in tactful, considerate ways.

Making the claims that any religion is better or worse than another because of persecution, war, etc., is honestly not a very good determining factor. Why? Because like I said before in my previous post, you can trace any established religion through history, and there are some pretty rotten things that have been done in the name of that religion. Saying that one religion is false or true, without any substantial backing to prove your case one way or another is equally pointless, as it simply then is an attempt to voice your opinion, and frequently try to present said opinion as fact -- which many people may or may not agree with that sentiment. Honestly, the only real way to go over each religion is through intensive research, over years of dedication to study each religion in-depth, and then making your determination as to which is right or wrong after that. Without doing that research, or studying multiple people's research in the subject to help weigh your decision, whatever you say on the subject is, honestly, paper-thin.

Yes, I am Christian. I've also been Ecclectic Pagan, studied Shamanism, Wiccan beliefs, and a variety of other "Neopagan" concepts. I've read up on and studied many sources on Mormonism, Islamic beliefs, Gnosticism, and even Atheism & Agnostic philosophies; with a brief familiarity of many Eastern religions. I'm in no way an expert, but it was enough of an understanding for me to weigh my results and determine that Christianity, the type where the only thing to use to interpret the Bible is the Bible -- not some scholar's interpretation, tradition, or any other such nonsense. But, that's me, and my personal beliefs.

I don't expect others to have the same beliefs, but I would appreciate if people would stop dragging my beliefs through the mud, so to speak, with the mocking and somewhat insulting tone I've seen used against Christianity and Christians in general. Stereotypes are not cool, m'kay?

[KN]

If you don't like a particular group, no one's forcing you to be a part of it. You can secede from the current christian faith and keep your ideas. Ever thought of this?

[Demontestament]

If you don't like a particular group, no one's forcing you to be a part of it. You can secede from the current christian faith and keep your ideas. Ever thought of this?

**** I seceded from the human race alot time ago. I am now in know way eligible to be blamed for any **** they do.


How did this escape you!!! Not only are you using a non word you're using it in for along it's to be more than a mere typo.... If Theory? notices this he will be reaching for the ban hammer, luckily I have hidden. -Toll

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

If you don't like a particular group, no one's forcing you to be a part of it. You can secede from the current christian faith and keep your ideas. Ever thought of this?

Is this directed to my statement? Because if so, I don't understand the connection or correlation. Are you trying to tell me that if I don't have the same beliefs as has been "straw-manned" on these forums as being the "Christian" beliefs, I should just stop claiming to be Christian? Because honestly, I would have an issue with that.

I'm hoping you were actually replying to someone else, because right now, what you wrote bears no correlation to what I wrote. I hope you understand that what is presented frequently, often through a ton of misrepresentation, as the "Christian faith" on these forums is not even remotely what is the Christian faith. The misrepresentation comes from all sides of these arguments -- the "pro Christianity" side misrepresenting themselves pushing some human "real world" political movement by claiming it is or isn't Christian being often what I've seen; while the flip-side is to take many bad examples of people touting the "Christianity" line, while being blatantly "un-Christian-like" in how they are doing things.

[KN]

Is this directed to my statement? Because if so, I don't understand the connection or correlation. Are you trying to tell me that if I don't have the same beliefs as has been "straw-manned" on these forums as being the "Christian" beliefs, I should just stop claiming to be Christian? Because honestly, I would have an issue with that.

I'm hoping you were actually replying to someone else, because right now, what you wrote bears no correlation to what I wrote. I hope you understand that what is presented frequently, often through a ton of misrepresentation, as the "Christian faith" on these forums is not even remotely what is the Christian faith. The misrepresentation comes from all sides of these arguments -- the "pro Christianity" side misrepresenting themselves pushing some human "real world" political movement by claiming it is or isn't Christian being often what I've seen; while the flip-side is to take many bad examples of people touting the "Christianity" line, while being blatantly "un-Christian-like" in how they are doing things.

No no, it was directed at you.

You rightly say that the label "christian" has associations that are unrepresentative of a lot of people. However, it is harder to change these associations than it is to just tear off the label and apply a new one. Let the idiots that ****ed it up keep the name, cause you have the actual faith.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

No no, it was directed at you.

You rightly say that the label "christian" has associations that are unrepresentative of a lot of people. However, it is harder to change these associations than it is to just tear off the label and apply a new one. Let the idiots that ****ed it up keep the name, cause you have the actual faith.

Except that the actual faith is following & believing in Christ. It makes no sense to change the name of it just to appease the stereotypes. If you need a better name, I could say "Lutheran", as that is the denomination I follow (which, curiously enough, even though Lutherans came about at the same time as the Protestants, we technically are not considered Protestants. For most Protestants, we are too Catholic -- because we didn't change anything from the Roman Catholic structure that was felt wasn't broken [the "don't fix it if it ain't broke" mentality], but we did change the parts that were felt were broken, so as a result, we are too Protestant for Catholics). The problem with this is... There's a sizable part of the Lutheran church bodies which have fallen into the more "mainstream" Christian perception (the kind which are regularly depicted and critiqued on these forums). I could say "Conservative Lutheran", which with religious beliefs, the Conservative term doesn't equate to the political Conservative term (which I am far more 'middle of the road' politically). I mean, the Lutherans had to change from calling themselves "catholic" because too many people equate that to the Roman Catholic church (look up on dictionary.com for the differences).

Honestly, even if it was people criticizing another religion other than Christianity -- if people were harrassing or insulting Confucianism, Buddhism, Wiccan, or whatever beliefs, I'd have issues with it. Why? Because throwing around insults, being antagonistic in a discussion places people on the defensive if those are their personal beliefs, and also spurns on further insults from people who have problems with said beliefs. It is most definitely not a mature, or civil way to approach a discussion. Tact is something that can go a long way toward presenting an idea. Insulting people has never worked as an effective way to present an idea to those people.

[John]

While I'm not overly thrilled with bayushisan's overly preachy bible-thumping ways, I'd appreciate it if there was a little less insult thrown in the direction of the Christian faith.

Honestly, the strong anti-Christian rhetoric I see coming from this forum (and this is in no way directed toward you KN, I am being very general here) makes me want to actually participate in this forum less than others. There are... tactful and considerate ways to present an argument without insulting someone's beliefs. Once again, I'm not fond of bayushisan's equally-offensive "pro Christian" rhetoric either. However, taking an antagonistic approach toward a discussion will almost never end up civil. For a discussion to really be of any "quality", ideas should be presented in tactful, considerate ways.

Don't mistake our anti-organized religion rhetoric or anti-fundie rhetoric as purely anti-Christian.

We're though on all religions here (from what I've seen). Though we pay special attention to Christianity because it claims to be a civil religion, at least moreso then it's Jewish and Islamic siblings (yes, Judaism, Islam and Christianity are sibling religions, no matter how much people believe otherwise).

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

Don't mistake our anti-organized religion rhetoric or anti-fundie rhetoric as purely anti-Christian.

We're though on all religions here (from what I've seen). Though we pay special attention to Christianity because it claims to be a civil religion, at least moreso then it's Jewish and Islamic siblings (yes, Judaism, Islam and Christianity are sibling religions, no matter how much people believe otherwise).

I understand, as I said, I'd much rather less blatantly open attacks on any religion or belief structure. There are polite, tactful ways to present arguments for or against a particular set of beliefs, without mud-slinging.

For the second part of your statement, I'd agree, Christianity and Islam are both "siblings" in that they derive from Judaism. Islam also incorporates a good portion of ancient Arabian and other beliefs that were handed off as stories told between caravans, while Christianity combines in the aspects of Christ's life on earth, and the development of the early church (known as the New Testament). Modern Judaism is also a bit different from ancient Judaism, so to a point, it also is a sibling... an older sibling, perhaps, and one that is named the same as the "parent" -- the ancient Judaism.

[Grahamr]

You know, i think the reason why people like israel so much is that it's the only true democracy in the middle east, where the people have a CHOICE instead of having to listen to some random faux deity who is more then willing to kill them if they choose not to. Also, women don't have to wear veils or get raped every ten seconds.

_______________________________

[Jabrwock]

You know, i think the reason why people like israel so much is that it's the only true democracy in the middle east, where the people have a CHOICE instead of having to listen to some random faux deity who is more then willing to kill them if they choose not to. Also, women don't have to wear veils or get raped every ten seconds.
I guess you weren't reading Bayu's responses. Most people like Isreal because it's not Arab, and not Muslim. It's the birthplace of most westerner's faiths, is "God's follower's land", and so to have it be a country that occupies and seizes land while bulldozing homes? Well that must be just an exaggeration.

YES they are at war with people who don't believe in their right to that land. YES they are beseiged. BUT they are also forcibly expanding their borders, and would have to be idiots to think that the people who have lived there for generations are just going to lie there and take it.

Just because Iran doesn't believe Israel has the right to exist does not mean the Israelis can turn around and apply the same logic to Palestine. That just means that the Israelis are no better than the terrorists they are battling.

I hate to Godwin, but the Allies didn't turn into Nazis in order to fight the Nazis...

And while the Israelis may treat their women with respect, they treat the Palestinians living under occupation like a pest just waiting to be removed. Like a plight on "God's turf"... Ask any Israeli building a settlement, and he can't wait to get the "filth" gone so he can live his life "like God intended."

[Grahamr]

I guess you weren't reading Bayu's responses. Most people like Isreal because it's not Arab, and not Muslim. It's the birthplace of most westerner's faiths, is "God's follower's land", and so to have it be a country that occupies and seizes land while bulldozing homes? Well that must be just an exaggeration.

YES they are at war with people who don't believe in their right to that land. YES they are beseiged. BUT they are also forcibly expanding their borders, and would have to be idiots to think that the people who have lived there for generations are just going to lie there and take it.

Just because Iran doesn't believe Israel has the right to exist does not mean the Israelis can turn around and apply the same logic to Palestine. That just means that the Israelis are no better than the terrorists they are battling.

I hate to Godwin, but the Allies didn't turn into Nazis in order to fight the Nazis...

And while the Israelis may treat their women with respect, they treat the Palestinians living under occupation like a pest just waiting to be removed. Like a plight on "God's turf"... Ask any Israeli building a settlement, and he can't wait to get the "filth" gone so he can live his life "like God intended."

I agree with everything in that post. I din't say "People like israel because their a democracy and that's why their allowed to kill palestine Etc."

[Thefremen]

I saw some Kurdish women in uniform in the paper, so now we NEED to have a beauty paegent to see who the hottest middle eastern military females are.

[John]

Here's an interesting story on the LA Times (http://www.latimes.com/news/la-fg-orthodox5jun05,0,5162545,full.story?coll=la-tot-topstories) about fundamentalist Jews in Israel.

[Jabrwock]

I agree with everything in that post. I din't say "People like israel because their a democracy and that's why their allowed to kill palestine Etc."
Sorry, should have been more clear. I was talking about most "right wing"'ers in the US. The kind who defend Israel's actions no matter what. That's what I read to mean "most people". :)

[Tollwutig]

While I'm not overly thrilled with bayushisan's overly preachy bible-thumping ways, I'd appreciate it if there was a little less insult thrown in the direction of the Christian faith.

Honestly, the strong anti-Christian rhetoric I see coming from this forum (and this is in no way directed toward you KN, I am being very general here) makes me want to actually participate in this forum less than others. There are... tactful and considerate ways to present an argument without insulting someone's beliefs. Once again, I'm not fond of bayushisan's equally-offensive "pro Christian" rhetoric either. However, taking an antagonistic approach toward a discussion will almost never end up civil. For a discussion to really be of any "quality", ideas should be presented in tactful, considerate ways.

Making the claims that any religion is better or worse than another because of persecution, war, etc., is honestly not a very good determining factor. Why? Because like I said before in my previous post, you can trace any established religion through history, and there are some pretty rotten things that have been done in the name of that religion. Saying that one religion is false or true, without any substantial backing to prove your case one way or another is equally pointless, as it simply then is an attempt to voice your opinion, and frequently try to present said opinion as fact -- which many people may or may not agree with that sentiment. Honestly, the only real way to go over each religion is through intensive research, over years of dedication to study each religion in-depth, and then making your determination as to which is right or wrong after that. Without doing that research, or studying multiple people's research in the subject to help weigh your decision, whatever you say on the subject is, honestly, paper-thin.

Yes, I am Christian. I've also been Ecclectic Pagan, studied Shamanism, Wiccan beliefs, and a variety of other "Neopagan" concepts. I've read up on and studied many sources on Mormonism, Islamic beliefs, Gnosticism, and even Atheism & Agnostic philosophies; with a brief familiarity of many Eastern religions. I'm in no way an expert, but it was enough of an understanding for me to weigh my results and determine that Christianity, the type where the only thing to use to interpret the Bible is the Bible -- not some scholar's interpretation, tradition, or any other such nonsense. But, that's me, and my personal beliefs.

I don't expect others to have the same beliefs, but I would appreciate if people would stop dragging my beliefs through the mud, so to speak, with the mocking and somewhat insulting tone I've seen used against Christianity and Christians in general. Stereotypes are not cool, m'kay?

I wouldn't mind seeing less anti-religious statements myself. Unfortunately it is a cycle that seems to go around. I'm gnostic myself, but have no particular faith.
The main reason why it usually seems heavily anti-Christian is that it is the most heavily defended religion on the forums. I'm pretty sure the most vehement members against religion would dispute Judaism or Islam if it were defended more fully. However I know of no Muslim members, and the only Jewish member that I know of does not defend his inherited religion.

Part of the problem lies in the constant NTS arguments applied to the Christian faith by those who believe it. This occurs often and often follows the following formula.

Defender: Christianity is a peaceful religion. Christianity doesn't cause problems or violence.

Avg Forum Member: Nazi's were Christians and killed millions. The Crusades were started by Christians.

Defender: The Nazi's weren't true Christians they falsely claimed the faith. The Catholics aren't Christians and the Pope started the Crusades.

AFM: Catholics are Christians they kinda were the original church.

Def: NO the Catholics corrupted the faith they are not Christians. True believers do not....


This argument has been had over & over & over again. It would help if those who defend the faith would accept that not all members of their faith are perfect. IT would also help if instead of claiming No True Scotsman arguments you clarify that your denomination was not particularly responsible for such acts. (Although since Nazi Germany was mostly Lutheran & Catholic members of those denominations are at fault for the WWII Holocaust.

Basically I guess what I am saying is instead of using generalizations and defending the entire Religion and attempting to re-write History to do so take some ownership of those of your Religion who do wrong. You can distinguish yourself as being of a different denomination, but do not claim that those who commit atrocities in the name of your Religion as not actually of you Religion. The NTS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_scotsman) logical fallacy argument irritates many.

One of the reasons for this is that despite the fact that most members of this forum agree that those who are attempting to remove God from every little bit of government function (money, pledge) are bigots, they do agree they are atheists. They don't claim a NTS argument.

Another issue is the constant denial of reality (claim that Islam is not related to Christianity through Judaism) often gets on peoples nerves.

Now I am not stating that things are all one sided. Both sides are at fault. I agree with you on the vehemence of the anti-religion crowd needs to lighten up, but the constant use of logical fallacy arguments to defend Religions needs to also be addressed as it irritates and causes issues as well.

Here are two statements that had heads beating desks.

I really hate to be the one to break this to you but Islam and Allah are false doctrines.

And I say that calling my faith dangerous and a myth is utter bullcrap. Not to mention bigoted.

Considering both of these statements can be attributed to the same person, could you possibly see why people easily get irritated?

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

Sorry, should have been more clear. I was talking about most "right wing"'ers in the US. The kind who defend Israel's actions no matter what. That's what I read to mean "most people". :)

Yeah, the Millenialistic Christian movement doesn't really help with that.

[Grahamr]

relevent

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqmMdPKw378

[KN]

relevent

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqmMdPKw378

I love this man <3

[Grahamr]

I love this man <3

I concur.

Joesph Goebbels couldn't fool this guy if his life depended on it.

[KN]

The funny thing is I know someone EXACTLY like this guy. Sadly he moved back to Iraq, and I have no idea where he is now. But if I know him, he's running into mosques and shoving the resident immam off the platue so he can have his say.