Fallout from General's anti-gay comments?

[Jabrwock]

http://pandagon.net/2007/03/26/beyond-the-pale-anti-gay-racist-emails-from-army-recruiter/

Basically instead of telling a potential army recruit that he can't be recruited due to the "don't ask, don't tell" policy (he responded to her offer of a job by informing her he was openly gay), this recruiter goes ape-**** on him, and says all sorts of nasty things about him, his race, and his sexual orientation, in several emails. At one point she even tells him to kill himself.

She's been suspended while the army conducts an investigation.

While the recruitee was pretty much provoking her, her conduct was unacceptable, and she should be made an example of. Her reponses were completely unprofessional.

His initial response to her "you are unqualified b/c you're gay" was a rather scathing letter (http://www.pamspaulding.com/graphics/Ramode_Andrew_emails_SLDN.pdf) saying she seemed perfectly happy to collect his "gay" tax dollars, just not willing to let him fight for his country. At one point he also compared army recruiters to pedofiles, since they were trolling the malls begging teens to sign up.

But I suspect that General Pale's "I hate gays" comments are partially to blame for this, since she was basically shown that it's ok to openly call gays all sorts of nasty things, under the guise of "just expressing one's opinion".

[Hank the Tank]

...since she was basically shown that it's ok to openly call gays all sorts of nasty things, under the guise of "just expressing one's opinion".

Hmm... what a familiar ideal.

[Ace_ofspade]

GO BACK TO AFRICA AND DO YOUR GAY VOODOO LIMBO TANGO AND WANGO DANCE AND JUMP AROUND AND PRANCE AND RUN ALL OVER THE PLACE HALF NAKED THERE.”

...

I have no response.

[Grahamr]

since she was basically shown that it's ok to openly call gays all sorts of nasty things, under the guise of "just expressing one's opinion".

see here for more on that logical falacy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clBJWka7VvA

[Demontestament]

Wow....just wow. I dare anyone to defend this dumbass bigot. I laughed my ass off on the whole

Freedom isn't free your freedom of speech was givenm to you by the US Military.

I took that directly from the emial just killed the all caps for sanity's sake. Last time I checked the Constitution gave us the Freedom of Speech, not the Military which in turn strips you of your freedoms when you join. It is because of people like this the US is so hated by the rest of the world.

Edit* Is it every moron's response to someone who questions a practice a form of "You don't like it? Leave America you Homo/random racist remark/liberal commie/bush hater/Atheist. You don't deserve to be American!"?

[Jabrwock]

Edit* Is it every moron's response to someone who questions a practice a form of "You don't like it? Leave America you Homo/random racist remark/liberal commie/bush hater/Atheist. You don't deserve to be American!"?Pretty much.

Questioning your government is un-patriotic, so shut up and sing.

[Pelor]

These are replies. Where are Corey's emails?

[Jabrwock]

These are replies. Where are Corey's emails?
Scroll down the pdf (http://www.pamspaulding.com/graphics/Ramode_Andrew_emails_SLDN.pdf). The initial emails are at the bottom. Basically other than the first one, all his are in regular type, all hers are ALL IN CAPS. ;)

[Pelor]

One thing, I'm not up current politics but since it's 2007, I would imagine also that I am now able to serve in the US military as an openly gay man, right?
mmmmm.... bait... ughhhdrool...

[Jabrwock]

mmmmm.... bait... ughhhdrool...
True, but you'd expect an army recruiter to, shall we say, be the bigger man? ;)

She's supposed to be a pro. A pro should know when the conversation is done, and not fly of the handle and essentially scream obscenities at him...

[KN]

The DADT policy is absolute ****ing bull****, and I can't believe Clinton, of all people, signed that into effect. What do men do when they're together? They talk about women. If you're the only one not talking about women, there's not a lot of asking left to be done. Or telling, for that matter.

As you've noted I haven't actually said anything about the guy himself. This is because I laughed so hysterically when I read his response that he has become the exemplar of lulz, making me unable to hate him.

[steelcobra]

A recruiter's job is to convince people to join. Nothing more. If someone can't join for specific policy reasons, the recruiter needs to maintain their military bearing, calmly explain why, and remain civil despite any incivility from the refused. And racism is in all forms very against the UCMJ. I hope they give her at least a field-grade Article 15 and max out the punishments.
Because those officers can issue these in any combination or amount up to this:
(1) Admonition or reprimand.

(3) Correctional custody: not more than 30 days.

(4) Forfeiture: not more than 1/2 of one month's pay per month for two months.

(5) Reduction: 3 grades, not imposable on E-7 and above (Navy, Army, and Air Force) or on E-6 and above (Marine Corps).

(6) Extra duties: not more than 45 days.

(7) Restriction: not more than 60 days.

And the forfeiture is at the first paygrade, not the reduced one.

[Demontestament]

A recruiter's job is to convince people to join. Nothing more. If someone can't join for specific policy reasons, the recruiter needs to maintain their military bearing, calmly explain why, and remain civil despite any incivility from the refused. And racism is in all forms very against the UCMJ. I hope they give her at least a field-grade Article 15 and max out the punishments.
Because those officers can issue these in any combination or amount up to this:
(1) Admonition or reprimand.

(3) Correctional custody: not more than 30 days.

(4) Forfeiture: not more than 1/2 of one month's pay per month for two months.

(5) Reduction: 3 grades, not imposable on E-7 and above (Navy, Army, and Air Force) or on E-6 and above (Marine Corps).

(6) Extra duties: not more than 45 days.

(7) Restriction: not more than 60 days.

And the forfeiture is at the first paygrade, not the reduced one.

Well seeing as the top brass believes the same way I don't think anything will happen. Hell they might even get a promotion for upholding "America's Military Moral Values"

[KN]

What's the policy? Are you saying that as a rule, gay people still can't join the military? :S

[steelcobra]

Well seeing as the top brass believes the same way I don't think anything will happen. Hell they might even get a promotion for upholding "America's Military Moral Values"

Behavior inconsistent with the army values
Misuse of a government computer
Using a government computer for racist statements
Misrepresenting the Army and the Government of the United states.

Damn, that'd be a fun counseling statement to recommend UCMJ action...

DADT basically says that gays can serve...as long as they stay in the closet. Clinton instituted it because he was getting pressure from both sides and decided to compromise.

It's still better than the old policy, where outed gays serving were imprisoned.


For reference, the official list of Army values are as follows:
Loyalty
Duty
Respect
Selfless Service
Honor
Integrity
Personal courage.

The bold ones are her violations.

[ZippyDSMlee]

since she was basically shown that it's ok to openly call gays all sorts of nasty things, under the guise of "just expressing one's opinion".
there is a difference in "just expressing one's opinion" and being unprofessional to the point of stupidity that gets you fired.......so by saying that a person has the right to express one self everyone is going to be evil so expression/free thought is baned because it will protect the many better....

How about we deal with one loon at a time and not ban things broadly >>

[Jabrwock]

there is a difference in "just expressing one's opinion" and being unprofessional to the point of stupidity that gets you fired.......so by saying that a person has the right to express one self everyone is going to be evil so expression/free thought is baned because it will protect the many better....

How about we deal with one loon at a time and not ban things broadly >>
I was just referring to how the General was defending his comments that were similarly (if not in level of vitriol, but rather in opinion) expressed.

She just took it further, is all.

[ZippyDSMlee]

I was just referring to how the General was defending his comments that were similarly (if not in level of vitriol, but rather in opinion) expressed.

She just took it further, is all.

No he had a distaste for it and think they can not serve she thinks they should tar and feathered and run out of town,theres a diffracne.


Dont they have desensitization programs in the army to curve peoples "sexualness"

Surely by the time you desentize people in basic training no one would interested in sex thus anyone can serve...but then that might be to cruel *L*

[Jabrwock]

No he had a distaste for it and think they can not serve she thinks they should tar and feathered and run out of town,theres a diffracne.He pretty much implied he feels it should be illegal for them to serve, because they disgust him.

She felt that it should be illegal for this guy to be an American, because he disgusts her...

Initially, she was "just expressing her disgust". Then she moved on to the whole tar and feather thing in later emails.

Her first email was full of "GTFO gay", the rest just got progressively worse. But her first email was not much different from General Pace's statements.

Even her initial derogatory email was out of line.

[ZippyDSMlee]

He pretty much implied he feels it should be illegal for them to serve, because they disgust him.

She felt that it should be illegal for this guy to be an American, because he disgusts her...

Initially, she was "just expressing her disgust". Then she moved on to the whole tar and feather thing in later emails.

Her first email was full of "GTFO gay", the rest just got progressively worse. But her first email was not much different from General Pace's statements.

Even her initial derogatory email was out of line.

But dose your disgust of them lesser than what they are to otehrs?

She of coarse needs helps and to be fired,He on the other hand has yet to go ape ****,some people dislike others for any given reason as long as it dose not effect their job they should be left to do said job.

for her, the job is over,and she would have gone ape sht regardless if he we there or not or made thos comments or not.

[Jabrwock]

He IS the top commander of the US army (under the president).

If your boss showed that it's ok to badmouth minority group X, wouldn't you feel that you are then "allowed" to do the same? After all, the President still supports him, so clearly he didn't do anything wrong...

Yes she took it further, but she shouldn't have taken it anywhere in the first place...

[bayushisan]

More than likely this will come down to a misuse of government property case. It could be taken to another level as a civil case as well.

[ZippyDSMlee]

He IS the top commander of the US army (under the president).

If your boss showed that it's ok to badmouth minority group X, wouldn't you feel that you are then "allowed" to do the same? After all, the President still supports him, so clearly he didn't do anything wrong...

Yes she took it further, but she shouldn't have taken it anywhere in the first place...

Again there is a difference in distaste and all out hatred.... what are you gonna do when people dont like you cry home to mommy no,sue them no,have them fired only if they can not do their job,he is not harassing people hes jsut another "moody" boss get over it and move on.

[Jabrwock]

he is not harassing people hes jsut another "moody" boss get over it and move on."Keep your mouth shut or I'll fire you."

Sounds like good advice... Maybe the US should institute a "don't ask, don't tell" policy regarding badmouthing the integrity of fellow troops...

[ZippyDSMlee]

"Keep your mouth shut or I'll fire you."

Sounds like good advice... Maybe the US should institute a "don't ask, don't tell" policy regarding badmouthing the integrity of fellow troops...

last I check that was the law regarding gays and the miltray hes just being brash about it.

[nightwng2000]

Recruitee A: I'm a homosexual man who would give my life to protect my country, the citizens of my coutnry, and my fellow soldier.

Recruitee B: I'm a heterosexual Satan worshiper who just wants to go out a kill sumthin'.

So, the DADT says that because Recruitee A identified himself as homosexual, the military will turn him down or fire him. But it's ok for Recruitee B to identify his sexuality, so he will be hired or kept on, irregardless of other factors?

After all, when heterosexual soldiers talk about their opposite gender spouses, they are admitting, at least in part, to their sexual orientation.

[bayushisan]

Actually recruitee B would be rejected as well because he or she has some pretty obvious mental and emotional issues.

[Pelor]

Honestly, I think they'd probably both be accepted.

[kurisu7885]

Actually recruitee B would be rejected as well because he or she has some pretty obvious mental and emotional issues.

I know of someone who has an extreme hatred of the asian culture, he actually wanted me to leave my late fiance only because she was japanese, and he is in the military now. So Pelor is likely right.

[steelcobra]

Actually recruitee B would be rejected as well because he or she has some pretty obvious mental and emotional issues.

considering some of the reduced standards nowadays, I've seen worse years ago.

[KN]

Actually recruitee B would be rejected as well because he or she has some pretty obvious mental and emotional issues.

Switch Satan with Khorne and I think Recruit B may actually describe up to 10% of the US army, to be honest =/

[nightwng2000]

considering some of the reduced standards nowadays, I've seen worse years ago.

Recruitee B is a generic form, in part, of all the Vietnam War movies that have soldiers who are completely bat**** screaming about just wanting to go to war so they can kill them some <bleep>. But I thought I'd make Recruitee B a little more generic than specifically wanting to kill a certin group of people.

I know such individuals are a very tiny portion of military personnel, but do you think the number has fallen since that period (the Vietnam War) or about the same?

[KN]

Recruitee B is a generic form, in part, of all the Vietnam War movies that have soldiers who are completely bat**** screaming about just wanting to go to war so they can kill them some <bleep>. But I thought I'd make Recruitee B a little more generic than specifically wanting to kill a certin group of people.

I know such individuals are a very tiny portion of military personnel, but do you think the number has fallen since that period (the Vietnam War) or about the same?

I don't know. In certain parts of the US, the xenophobia is quite rampant, and I'm pretty sure a sizable portion of the able-bodied adults there would enlist just for the purpose of getting to "shoot the darkies".

[steelcobra]

Recruitee B is a generic form, in part, of all the Vietnam War movies that have soldiers who are completely bat**** screaming about just wanting to go to war so they can kill them some <bleep>. But I thought I'd make Recruitee B a little more generic than specifically wanting to kill a certin group of people.

I know such individuals are a very tiny portion of military personnel, but do you think the number has fallen since that period (the Vietnam War) or about the same?

Considering that 90% of enlisted personnel were drafted in the Vietnam war, I'd say that it's likely that there are more now.

[Jabrwock]

Actually recruitee B would be rejected as well because he or she has some pretty obvious mental and emotional issues.
Not unless he displayed some serious mental issues. Just saying you love Satan wouldn't prevent him from joining.

Which makes you wonder about people who declare themselves gay. Are they just doing it to get out of military service? What if you didn't want to go to Iraq. You could just say "lolz IR Teh GAYZ", and they'd send you home. I mean what, are they going to prove you DIDN'T have the hots for your manly CO?

It's a really stupid policy.

I mean what constitutes "gay" in the military. Are you gay if you like men? Are you gay if you like Barbara Streisand? Are you gay if you just haven't gotten laid in a year and are bonding a little too much with your fellow troops? Or do you actually have to out and out SAY it? Is anyone else allowed to "tattle" on you?