Here we go again

[bayushisan]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070329/ap_on_re_mi_ea/arab_summit

My question is this. Why should Israel trust any offer of peace from the Palestinians? In the past, whenever an accord's been reached the PLO has renigged on their side of the pact and attacked anyway; and then we have week after week of news reports talking about how evil Israel is when it defends itself and its right to exist.

This is same old song and dance we saw from Arafat during the 90's.

[Jabrwock]

In the past, whenever an accord's been reached the PLO has renigged on their side of the pact and attacked anyway;I'm sure it has nothing to do with the fact that time and time again Israel has promised to stop building illegal settlements, and then does so anyway. Or promises to allow Palestinians to move from one territory to the other, but then closes the borders so even pregnant women currently in labor can't make it to a hospital.

Nope, must be 100% the PLO's fault...

[bayushisan]

So closing down borders in response to constant rocket attacks is Israel's fault now?

I've never been able to understand how people came to the conclusion that Israel's building of settlements on their own land was somehow illegal. Oh wait, that's right. Israel doesn't have the right to exist. Silly me to have forgotten that.

[Theory?]

Brand new thread, and I'm SO close to closing it simply because I don't want to hear it.

This argument is as old as the conflict itself and it's far too complicated to say "It's _____'s fault" because frankly, they both act like little children everytime this happens.

Don't let this thread get out of hand. This is your responsibility Bayu, if it goes haywire, it'll be your ass. Got it?

[Tollwutig]

So closing down borders in response to constant rocket attacks is Israel's fault now?

I've never been able to understand how people came to the conclusion that Israel's building of settlements on their own land was somehow illegal. Oh wait, that's right. Israel doesn't have the right to exist. Silly me to have forgotten that.

Well considering that the illegal settlements are in territory that was taken in 1967 during a war with the Arab nations the land doesn't belong to Israel, and was not granted to Israel at the end of WWII.

And before you bring up that the Israelites were promised this land in Biblical time I think over 100 years of occupation by Palestinians gives them claim to the land now. Or else all of us WASPS and African-Americans need to get out of the Americas, we have less claim to these lands than the Cherokee, Chippewa, Navajo, Aztecs, Mohican, etc.


Personally I say we expend a couple of thermo nuclear devices and make the Holy Land into God's country literally.

[Jabrwock]

So closing down borders in response to constant rocket attacks is Israel's fault now?Israel promised the UN that it would only close specific borders if it was needed to prevent a security threat. And that it would notify the UN of those specific threats.

Instead, they close down random borders, just for fun. An attack comes out of the West Bank, so they close the Gaza border, a week later, for "security reasons". But then when they are asked what reasons, they just reopen the border without giving any reason.

The fact that Palestinians need Israeli permission to leave Palestine, and go to Egypt, and vice versa, without passing through Israel at all, is proof enough that Israel is engaged in an occupation rather than just self-preservation.

[Demontestament]

So closing down borders in response to constant rocket attacks is Israel's fault now?

I've never been able to understand how people came to the conclusion that Israel's building of settlements on their own land was somehow illegal. Oh wait, that's right. Israel doesn't have the right to exist. Silly me to have forgotten that.

You know what the funny this is? Israel feels the same way towards Palastine in the beliefe that they don't have the right to exist. Your fooling yourself if you believe if Israel is innocent of any crimes in this **** fest. They are about as guilty of murder and other attrocities commited in this so called "Holy War". So don't go making it sound like it is poor little Israel being picked on, they do their share of the killing and damage.








Personally I say we expend a couple of thermo nuclear devices and make the Holy Land into God's country literally.

I'd wish they take eachother out, so we don't have to hear who's holy land it is and whos god rules over what and what book says what anymore. I think we are morons for back any side in this cluster****.

[bayushisan]

If this thread is that offensive by all means close the bloody thing.

[Demontestament]

If this thread is that offensive by all means close the bloody thing.

who said anything about offensive? I think what Theory? meant is you are responsible if this turns into an all out flame war instead of a civil debate, which I honestly think we can have.

[Thefremen]

Personally I say we expend a couple of thermo nuclear devices and make the Holy Land into God's country literally.

I saw we drop some little makers down there and make it Shai-Hulud's country literally.

[Theory?]

who said anything about offensive? I think what Theory? meant is you are responsible if this turns into an all out flame war instead of a civil debate, which I honestly think we can have.

Exactly.

This topic has rarely ended well here, and by now, everyone who posts here should be very familiar with that. So, with that said, if you guys can keep this thread civil, then by all means, but if it gets out of hand, guess who's going to take the fall? I'll give you a hint, it won't be the mods.

[bayushisan]

I'll be upfront on this one, yes I am a Zionist when it comes to Israel. I'm not ashamed of that fact. Much of my belief on this matter come from a staunchly religious place that is rooted in my Faith. I do think there's a solution to the issue but for that to come about there would have to be a consensus on a couple of points.

1. Israel has both the right to exist and the right to defend itself. Basically if Lebanon, Syria or the Palestinians attack, Israel has the right to use military action in response.

2. The Palestinian people have the right to govern themselves, they do not have the right to attack Israel and make more demands in exchange for "peace". If they're not willing to uphold previous aggreements then no future ones should be made.

I have other more hardline beliefs on this, but what I just mentioned is a good starting point.

[Jabrwock]

So how do the illegal Israeli settlements on internationally recognized Palestinian land factor in to "right to exist and defend itself"?

Even Israel admits they don't own the land they're building on...

[bayushisan]

if you're referring to the land taken in 1967 wasn't Israel attacked first in that conflict? I could be mistaken but I thought that was the case.

[Theory?]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phillistine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaan

I think those get to the very heart of the issue, not that I firmly believe anyone fighting on either side has ANY idea why they're fighting anymore.

[weatherlight]

Well that whole region has a history of warring with each other. It is great that they are coming together to talk without the US or the UN having to play the go between. This will be interesting to see if they can work it out.

[steelcobra]

I believe that in that particular instance, ALL of their neighbors attacked them simultaneously. And got SPANKED. Which led to small-scale terror attacks.

Only nearly every Israeli carries a gun. Which led to suicide bombing. Which eventually led to the wall they built. Which significantly reduced the suicide bombing rates.

[Jabrwock]

if you're referring to the land taken in 1967 wasn't Israel attacked first in that conflict? I could be mistaken but I thought that was the case.
Whether they were attacked first or not, how does that justify the settlements? It may justify occupation, but settlements? That's land appropriation, not protection, which is exactly what Germany did to the Jews prior to WWII... Namely take their land away "just because".

[Theory?]

Whether they were attacked first or not, how does that justify the settlements? It may justify occupation, but settlements? That's land appropriation, not protection, which is exactly what Germany did to the Jews prior to WWII... Namely take their land away "just because".

Pulling it out of context makes it look like a "Just because", but again, history plays a part. These two peoples have NEVER gotten along, NEVER, and odds are, they never will.

Again, things that happened thousands of years ago don't really justify the actions of today, but the point is, none of this is "just because".

[steelcobra]

For the most part, the settlements were just groups of people who went out to an area that looked empty and set up. Which is why Isreal closed down an relocated a number of them last year.

[Ace_ofspade]

Here's a suggestion- We terraform two small sections of the moon, make two perfect replicas of Old Jerusalem, then ship the extremist Jews and Muslims to these two colonies and forget about them. Then, us normal people here on Earth can move beyond religion and appreciate the sites for their historical value. Everybody wins.

[Tollwutig]

Pulling it out of context makes it look like a "Just because", but again, history plays a part. These two peoples have NEVER gotten along, NEVER, and odds are, they never will.

And this is why I am in favor of nuking the hell out of that region, that way no one would want to claim it.

[Jabrwock]

For the most part, the settlements were just groups of people who went out to an area that looked empty and set up. But then they demanded protection, so they bulldozed nearby buildings, and orchards, and then built trenches and walls, then said that farmers couldn't go from their house to their field, and people couldn't make it to hospitals, because they'd have to pass by the settlement, etc.

Which is why Isreal closed down an relocated a number of them last year.Some yeah, but others continue to grow, even ones that they promised they'd pack up and move back into Israeli territory.

Palestine went from being surrounded by Israelis, to being divided up into Israeli zones, each cutting off various Palestinian towns/farms from the services they use to have access to.

Imagine a guy moved onto your front lawn, claimed it as his own, and then said because you told him to f'off, that for security reasons he can't let you use your own driveway. Then he won't let the milk delivery come up your driveway, because he's punishing you for the rock you threw at him earlier. Then he denies your wife the ability to use the driveway to get to the hospital.

And then he's amazed, when after years of this, you pull out the gun and tell him to leave your lawn... and he tells you that it's your own damn fault you can't use your own driveway...

[John]

Seriously, cut the land in half. 50% goes to Israel, 50% goes to Palestine. And build a big mutha****ing wall at the boarder.

[Demontestament]

Seriously, cut the land in half. 50% goes to Israel, 50% goes to Palestine. And build a big mutha****ing wall at the boarder.

Wouldn't work, you see each side wants 100% because each believe the area is their Holy Land. No why they can't just accept this and live as one and live in their holy land with eachother is beyond me. But then again telling a bratty child to share his toys shares the same outcome.

[steelcobra]

But then they demanded protection, so they bulldozed nearby buildings, and orchards, and then built trenches and walls, then said that farmers couldn't go from their house to their field, and people couldn't make it to hospitals, because they'd have to pass by the settlement, etc.

Some yeah, but others continue to grow, even ones that they promised they'd pack up and move back into Israeli territory.

Palestine went from being surrounded by Israelis, to being divided up into Israeli zones, each cutting off various Palestinian towns/farms from the services they use to have access to.

Imagine a guy moved onto your front lawn, claimed it as his own, and then said because you told him to f'off, that for security reasons he can't let you use your own driveway. Then he won't let the milk delivery come up your driveway, because he's punishing you for the rock you threw at him earlier. Then he denies your wife the ability to use the driveway to get to the hospital.

And then he's amazed, when after years of this, you pull out the gun and tell him to leave your lawn... and he tells you that it's your own damn fault you can't use your own driveway...
I was simply pointing out that it wasn't the government setting these areas up. Whether or not it's right was nowhere in that post.

[John]

Wouldn't work, you see each side wants 100% because each believe the area is their Holy Land. No why they can't just accept this and live as one and live in their holy land with eachother is beyond me. But then again telling a bratty child to share his toys shares the same outcome.

Well, tell them to **** off and deal with it.

And, seriously, who's ****ed up idea was it to put the Holy Land of three major religions IN THE SAME GODDAMN PLACE?!

[seductivpancakes]

I honestly dont care anymore. They wipe each other eventually. Every time I hear an arguement about this, it's always the something.

[Demontestament]

Well, tell them to **** off and deal with it.

And, seriously, who's ****ed up idea was it to put the Holy Land of three major religions IN THE SAME GODDAMN PLACE?!

Well it kinda happens when you each copy your answers off eachother :D.

[Jabrwock]

I was simply pointing out that it wasn't the government setting these areas up. Whether or not it's right was nowhere in that post.
The government just keeps promising to do something about them, but then doesn't.

Seriously, cut the land in half. 50% goes to Israel, 50% goes to Palestine. And build a big mutha****ing wall at the boarder.They had that in 1946 (minus the wall). Then the arab states attacked Israel, and in retaliation, Israel seized the other 50%. Ever since then they either claimed it as their own, or ruled over it while building settlements and parceling up the land to restrict movement within the territories.

Here's a map of Gaza:
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/gaza_strip_1999.jpg

You can't go to Egypt without Israeli permission. You can't sail a boat in or out, without Israeli permission. You can't move from region to region within the territory without Israeli permission. You can't even build a house without Israeli permission.

[John]

They had that in 1946 (minus the wall). Then the arab states attacked Israel, and in retaliation, Israel seized the other 50%. Ever since then they either claimed it as their own, or ruled over it while building settlements and parceling up the land to restrict movement within the territories.

Here's a map of Gaza:
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/gaza_strip_1999.jpg

You can't go to Egypt without Israeli permission. You can't sail a boat in or out, without Israeli permission. You can't move from region to region within the territory without Israeli permission. You can't even build a house without Israeli permission.

Well, 61 years later, I say give it another shot.

[Jabrwock]

Well, 61 years later, I say give it another shot.
Fine with me. Just don't let the Israelis build the wall. Have some independant 3rd party do it.

[Thefremen]

The best solution is to send sunnis to arrakis, suffis to tleilax, shiites to hell, and israelites to several worlds known only to the bene gesserit.

[bayushisan]

Wouldn't work, you see each side wants 100% because each believe the area is their Holy Land. No why they can't just accept this and live as one and live in their holy land with eachother is beyond me. But then again telling a bratty child to share his toys shares the same outcome.

Part of the reason they either can't or won't follow this line is that, in large part, their two faiths are anathema to each other. There's also the 2000+ years of hate between the two that's more than just a little bit of a stumbling block.

[John]

Fine with me. Just don't let the Israelis build the wall. Have some independant 3rd party do it.

Exporting the job to Mexico or China?

You make Lou Dobbs cry...

[seductivpancakes]

Exporting the job to Mexico or China?

You make Lou Dobbs cry...

Walls are a chinese specialty.

[Jabrwock]

Exporting the job to Mexico or China?

You make Lou Dobbs cry...
Lou Dobbs can bite my shiny anglo-saxon arse. ;)

[Thefremen]

China could build the wall. It will be safe as long as there's no mongolians around.

[Jabrwock]

China could build the wall. It will be safe as long as there's no mongolians around.
Hey, it wasn't their fault the Mongolians were smart enough to just walk around the wall. That was caused by a lack of beaurocratic foresight... ;)

[KN]

Here's the solution:

Everyone out. You can't make a fair decision on a nation that three religions consider as their property, so the only thing you can do is make everyone lose equally. Empty Israel. Send everyone elsewhere. The best solution would of course be to send everyone off, encapsulate the important landmarks and then drop a few nukes on the place so no one will even WANT to go there. Israel is the real world's abortion thread: there is no conceivable way it can end well.

All sides have ****ed up. No more second chances. Everyone leaves Israel. One less problem at hand. Yay!

Reality note: Of course, this is even more unrealistic than giving Israel to either the Israelites or the Palestinians, but it would be the fairest solution.

[John]

I'll be upfront on this one, yes I am a Zionist when it comes to Israel. I'm not ashamed of that fact. Much of my belief on this matter come from a staunchly religious place that is rooted in my Faith. I do think there's a solution to the issue but for that to come about there would have to be a consensus on a couple of points.

1. Israel has both the right to exist and the right to defend itself. Basically if Lebanon, Syria or the Palestinians attack, Israel has the right to use military action in response.

2. The Palestinian people have the right to govern themselves, they do not have the right to attack Israel and make more demands in exchange for "peace". If they're not willing to uphold previous aggreements then no future ones should be made.

I have other more hardline beliefs on this, but what I just mentioned is a good starting point.

I'm going to pull a Borat here.

But do you believe that Jews'll go to heaven or hell?

[Grahamr]

You know what the funny this is? Israel feels the same way towards Palastine in the beliefe that they don't have the right to exist. Your fooling yourself if you believe if Israel is innocent of any crimes in this **** fest. They are about as guilty of murder and other attrocities commited in this so called "Holy War". So don't go making it sound like it is poor little Israel being picked on, they do their share of the killing and damage.









I'd wish they take eachother out, so we don't have to hear who's holy land it is and whos god rules over what and what book says what anymore. I think we are morons for back any side in this cluster****.


America, Israel, and All the muslim extremists are fighting wars in the name of religion.

[KN]

America, Israel, and All the muslim extremists are fighting wars in the name of religion.

Wait, hold up. Hold up. One sec.


If oil is a religion now, why are my gas prices so high? Shouldn't it be tax-exempt?

[Thefremen]

Wait, hold up. Hold up. One sec.


If oil is a religion now, why are my gas prices so high? Shouldn't it be tax-exempt?

I say someone go down there and threaten to destroy the oil unless everyone gtfo. If you have the power to destroy a thing, you control that thing. He who controls the oil controls the universe.

[bayushisan]

I think the fairest solution, at least from a purely political perspective, would be to enforce the existing treaty.

Not my personal belief mind you but that's for another thread. I'd like to keep this as civil as possible.

[Tollwutig]

Here's the solution:

Everyone out. You can't make a fair decision on a nation that three religions consider as their property, so the only thing you can do is make everyone lose equally. Empty Israel. Send everyone elsewhere. The best solution would of course be to send everyone off, encapsulate the important landmarks and then drop a few nukes on the place so no one will even WANT to go there. Israel is the real world's abortion thread: there is no conceivable way it can end well.


This is what I am advocating, force everyone out, and contaminate the soil and water with radioactive waste to make the whole area uninhabitable. At most allow Cruise ships to pull into port and give short tours.

Everyone loses, tough ****, maybe in the intervening 1000 years it takes for the radiation to wear off they can figure out how to get along.

[Thefremen]

Here's the solution:

Everyone out. You can't make a fair decision on a nation that three religions consider as their property, so the only thing you can do is make everyone lose equally. Empty Israel. Send everyone elsewhere. The best solution would of course be to send everyone off, encapsulate the important landmarks and then drop a few nukes on the place so no one will even WANT to go there. Israel is the real world's abortion thread: there is no conceivable way it can end well.

[
This is what I am advocating, force everyone out, and contaminate the soil and water with radioactive waste to make the whole area uninhabitable. At most allow Cruise ships to pull into port and give short tours.

Everyone loses, tough ****, maybe in the intervening 1000 years it takes for the radiation to wear off they can figure out how to get along.

Region surrounding Israel closed due to AIDs.

[Theory?]

At Bayu's request, this thread is

CLOSED!

[Tollwutig]

I'm half a mind to re-open this thread as it is one of the few that didn't devolve into a flame war on the subject.

[Theory?]

That's your call. Bayu requested the thread be closed, which was appropriate seeing as to how I left this thread in his hands.

If you re-open it, it becomes the mods problem again. Or rather, it becomes your problem.

[Tollwutig]

OK well if it is a Mod problem then the mods who can post in a closed thread will continue the discussion as an example of how to have a discussion without resulting in a Flame War.

So Mods, post your opinions:

I still personally think the whole area should be declared international like Antarctica was, no one gets to rule the Holy Land then, solves the issue. Then we get countries to donate land to the Jews & Palestinians for their countries, preferably in different hemispheres.

[Jabrwock]

Sounds like a good idea, but the only reason it worked for Antartica was because it's empty.

I like the idea from Tom Clancy's book (can't remember which one), which turns the Holy Land into something like Northern Ireland. They set up a triad governement, with a Roman Catholic, an Imam, and a Rabbi in charge. If you had a dispute, you could choose which set of laws you were going to complain under.

[Theory?]

I like pie.

But I hate fallafel.

[Garrett]

Bomb it. Wait for the radioactivity to clear and re-open it for everyone, but no one owns it. Just like we should do with this thread.

[Theory?]

Bomb it. Wait for the radioactivity to clear and re-open it for everyone, but no one owns it. Just like we should do with this thread.

You're sa funnay!

[Tollwutig]

Sounds like a good idea, but the only reason it worked for Antartica was because it's empty.

I like the idea from Tom Clancy's book (can't remember which one), which turns the Holy Land into something like Northern Ireland. They set up a triad governement, with a Roman Catholic, an Imam, and a Rabbi in charge. If you had a dispute, you could choose which set of laws you were going to complain under.

That is when you forcibly remove everyone from the area. Also remove all of the modern stuff except for a few to make monuments to the fact that people need to learn to get along.