Just joined and sent in a "First things first" email

[ZippyDSMlee]

(zippys on his high hose get out the tomatos and spit wads :D )
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First things first:Consumer rights

From ZippyDSMlee(gamepoliticsforums)
To:Hal or anyone that cares....looking at the industry it only cares about itself....


Its time to let the publishers and their slaves in retail know the consumers are tied of being treated like a enemy,the right of returning a bad or poorly made product is the right of the consumer and yet the Media industry has raped that right from the hands of the unwilling consumer.

With Steam not offering a simple trade game system for tis retail releases and making said games "ONLINE ONLY" and Gamestop/EBs latest assault on used gaming (the ban of selling used PC games) enough is enough its time to return to the day of "right of return" however a new system needs to be put in place to ensure all retailers comply with treating the consumer as a consumer not a pirate or a thief with that the retailers are not alone in this publishers need to buck up and share in losses something to help retailers deal with the momentary losses from returns.




I am not unreasonable I might be insane(I am Zippy after all) but I am not unreasonable here are a few steps I see that would greatly enhance my willingness to buy a new product from a "main" retailer

Retail
1. 3-10 day return period.
2. 5-25% restock fee.
3.New returns can be labeled as new or "Restock" and be sold at 80-90% of current retail price.
4.Each person is limited to 2-6 games a month,you can enhance this right of return by offering premium memberships where you can return a game no questions asked within the time period specified.

Publishers

Why should publishers shear in the losses of bad games...do I really need to answer a question that has been answered?
I am unsure how publishers track returns and defects but this system needs to be overhauled and made more public if they refuse to do this they should pay 5% of cost to the retailer for being a racket and not a regulated business.

1.Need to mange the information of "bad" and defects better.
2.Need to be aware that the populace is unhappy with the anti consumer practices they do,its one thing to create a key system that will lock a game if it sees that key has been baned but let it function offline (IDs key system) its another to make a offline game and once you update it can not run without being online (HL2 and other steam games) not to mention the copy protection on PC games that destroy drives or drivers crash the OS or impair performance, copy protection has its place but its only causing more damage to sales than helping.

3.Improve Copy protection by making it more consumer friendly,a system like IDs key system you can tie updates to it making it that it more annoying to update without a valid key,creating a simple forum system with keys tied to accounts in order to get updates and such these are steps the the industry needs to take not highly failable multi million dollar anti consumer copy protection schemes that get cracked after a week.


The Final Misnomer
Piracy is not the cause of poor sales poor products and a industry that treats its consumer as miscreants is...
To blame the consumer for not buying enough is a sign of arrogance on a new level,you do not lose a "profit" on each copy shared,you do lose some money I am not that blind however by making a product that halves in price in 5 months that most of the time is poor quality that can not be returned after a few days that may have high anti consumer properties you have already lost money before you even sold or "shared" your first copy.

Much like the Anti Game bills Blaming piracy for poor game sales is akin to saying violence is porn and should be banned,do not think all consumers are sheeple and can be lead to the slaughter.

There are 3 main reasons for piracy
1.its free will always be the dominating factor over free is never easy and comes with its own set of hurdles getting a "pirated" game to work is not always easy.

2.Lack of the ability to return a "bad" game.

3.demos are not like they where in the 90s,most of the time you get large and very content limited demos almost to the point where it dose not really show anything.

In the end most of the blame on poor sales fall on the makers not the consumers put the blame where you will but improving consumer relations,having the ability to return a bad game in 3-7 days and providing better demos and higher quality games will help the industry more than blaming the consumer for not buying 2 copies of every game they buy,you are not Hollywood you don't need to pad your numbers like that....



Thanks for your time
Lee Jarvis/ZippyDSMlee

p.s:I'll be posting this email and any replies on www.gamepoliticsforums.com
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[Garrett]

Urr.. did you send this out already? Your spell checker is a bit off...

[ZippyDSMlee]

Urr.. did you send this out already? Your spell checker is a bit off...

I read threw it thrice,and spell checked it with FF and Thunderbird,if you do not recall my speller/grammar is broken I am learning disabled after all.

[Thefremen]

I read threw it thrice,and spell checked it with FF and Thunderbird,if you do not recall my speller/grammar is broken I am learning disabled after all.

We all make allowances for Zippy being Zippy. Well, most of us.

[ZippyDSMlee]

We all make allowances for Zippy being Zippy. Well, most of us.

:P

anyway the brunt of it makes sense,if they are going to ignore it over some errors then shame on them,if you are going to ignore ignore because tis zippy or nonsensical or both :P

[Garrett]

I read threw it thrice,and spell checked it with FF and Thunderbird,if you do not recall my speller/grammar is broken I am learning disabled after all.
But that's why we are here for you!

[Hal Halpin]

Hey Guys,

Sorry for the delay in responding. We were just pointed to your post and related email, and I wanted to provide you with a means of getting to us more easily. Email me directly at hal at theeca dot com. I can't promise to personally reply to each and every message, but I will do my best to read them all and see that the related issues/requests are addressed if appropriate.

Also, I'd appreciate it if you didn't share my info beyond this forum - for all of the reasons you would suspect I'm sure.

As for the matter of return privileges, it is a complex problem that consumers actually share in common with major retailers... a handful of whom do have return policies and can exchange them for credit to the publishers. If that is an important point for you in the purchasing experience, I'd highly recommend seeking out those merchants and giving them your business. In doing so, you should also mention to your former retailer's store manager the reason they're losing your business. Believe me, that kind of information is communicated pretty quickly up the totem pole and does make an impact.

Beyond that, there isn't going to be an easy fix unfortunately. On the PC side, games aren't sold, they're licensed (generally speaking). It's an important distinction in that you don't own the product fully and can't do to it and with it what you might assume. Retailers and publishers are also up against more than just piracy in the returns challenge, as thieves often try to shrink-wrap games without the/a disk and exchange them.

All that said, the ECA can and will become a force for change that can begin tackling broad industry issues such as this. By simply being at the table, if you will, we have already changed the paradigm. Offering solutions that perhaps have never been considered, or even being the voice of consumers where there previously was none, will affect change. But before we can expect to be taken seriously, we need to build our membership ranks and infrastructure. Granted, we're only five months in... but what we need most is to prove ourselves. Once we've surmounted that near term obstacle we will be in a place to be taken quite seriously, and for that we need your help. Our founding members are our "early adopters" and should feel free to be evangelists.

Thanks for all of your help, support and understanding. And please do keep the communications lines open. We hope to have more forums for ECA members open soon as we roll out the modules, but please do contact me directly as we discussed above.


Thanks again,

-Hal.

Hal Halpin, pres.
ECA


P.S. - I totally get the LD thing... I have three myself. They're challenging at times, but I've found that it makes me work harder to overcome any adversity.

[ZippyDSMlee]

Hal Halpin

(GP needs to lock this subforum for ESA members,if you want to keep the google bots from snagging your email)

I am honored you took the time to reply,I understand the industry has issues to deal with like piracy and turning a profit but in dealing with thos issues it can not forget that consumers will only put up with so much,the industry needs to help the retail side forum a simple return plan so that at the very least a store has the choice of it,as far as theft goes ,blameign the consumer is not the right approach again a system to evaluate a return would fix this

Say you have a system in place that GS/EB would use

1.Store account
2.5-25% return fee (this pays for the account system)
3.Break down
the game itself is 70% of the total
Manual is 20%
Inserts are 10%

So you return a game opened or not
The employee checks the game manual and Inserts if all is there he type the return into the system

1 50$ game -X% into store credit if you have a premium(10-20 a month/20-50 a year) account you can get a refund back.
The game is then resold at its "returned" price about say it was returned for 40 the game would be sold for 45,not only do you get money from the return but the resale,of coarse prices will be change via MSRP but this can be done.

its called customer service something game retail has been scrambling away from for years.

I understand PC games are slightly different but you must realize the Xbox (both of them) are as easy to copy and paly removing used PC games from stores and other anti consumer activities is not a good way to help consumers decide to spend money on games.

Because PC games carry the "stigma" they get a a extra 10-20% on a return if that game is online,so take UT3 at 56$ returned it would be 25-40 depending on the %.

My point being removing that choice makes waiting for 60% price drops and "torrent demoing" look very good because the industry is not trying deal with the real issues of bad games, insane pricing and all out offensive tactics on the consumer.

Hell if its going to take a 10% hike in game prices gain "right of return"(at 15%) back it would be worth it,I don't mind paying 70-80 for a good game,and more than willing to buy new but I don't see the industry doing anythign to make it worth my while.

adding I also understand the industry is large and many of its member have varying thoughts on what needs to be done to make things "better",I just would like to always have the industry remember that consumer's are not the cause of their woes.

[ZippyDSMlee]

Revising the return rule

A store account would be needed
A simple program added to the cashiers machine to take returns it automatically knocks off the missing items.

20% return fee(it can vary but for the sake of balancing it out between PC and consoles 20% is reasonable)

A.the game itself is 60% of the total
B.Disc has scratches 15%
B.Manual is 20%
C.Inserts are 10%

Resale of used games named "Returns"
Resold for 10$ over the the returned price.


Exsamples

Whole return
60$ game=48 store credit,resold for 58,store profit= 22 on every copy sold

Minus manual
60$ game=36 store credit,resold for 48,store profit= 34 on every copy sold

Whole with Scratches
60$ game=35 store credit,resold for 45,store profit= 36 on every copy sold

Minus manual,Scratches,Minus insert
60$ game=33 store credit,resold for 43,,store profit= 37 on every copy sold





I see no diffrance in console and PC games the law pretty much dose not either (look at the old RIAA Vrs used CD to see that) only retail chains have decided to refuse to sale used PC games,because chains are part of the industry it smacks of rico to remove used PC games from their line up,and its just not "consumer friendly".

Also the Industry is going to have to deal with the free sharing of out of print items,the industry dose not make a direct profit off used game sales,there is little diffrance in that and "sharing" ,if the industry wants to repack and sale a product thats fine,but don't expect people to go out of their way to buy regurgitated games with no new fixed and sold without REAL manuals.

Don't get me wrong thos that sale "copies" without a license should be fined heavily,however you can never regulate friends sharing stuff,gettign with the times and offering better products in better ways will always gain you the profit you need and deserve.

I know my basis,I feel the industry can do no good and the industry feels consumers can do no good,but the point of this is to forum a better idea over how to deal fairly with returns,as the ECA you need to start listing stores and chains that allow returns and what their rules are if you do not you are not really doing anythign for the consumer over the industry,remember you are a consumer agency after all.

[ZippyDSMlee]

Is it true used games can be returned at EB/GS?

[Thefremen]

Is it true used games can be returned at EB/GS?

Not PC games, but everything else.

[ZippyDSMlee]

Not PC games, but everything else.

well no since they no longer sale used PC games but.

so let me get their right I can return a used game for any reason yet not a new game......that only be done in trade or sold as used right?

[Thefremen]

well no since they no longer sale used PC games but.

so let me get their right I can return a used game for any reason yet not a new game......that only be done in trade or sold as used right?

Yeah it's because of the nature of used, you returning it doesn't make it less new because it was always used...as long as it's in working condition it'll be fine at Gamestop at least. Can't say for EB tho.

I once bought one used game, returned it two days later, returned that game five days later, then exchanged that one 3 days after.

[ZippyDSMlee]

Yeah it's because of the nature of used, you returning it doesn't make it less new because it was always used...as long as it's in working condition it'll be fine at Gamestop at least. Can't say for EB tho.

I once bought one used game, returned it two days later, returned that game five days later, then exchanged that one 3 days after.

now this makes things a bit better,I still dislike the "stigma" on PC games when a flashed Xbox or 360 is as easy to copy for if not EASIER (360 has no updated CP to hack just the drive frimware) but meh...wearing a tin foil hat can cause blindness sometimes desu :X